How To: Get the Saints back to the SB in (1) offseason (1 Viewer)

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Man, interesting one. I'm just going to go down the list.

-I haven't taken a stance on the DC. I'm basically in a wait and see mode, and from there, I'll look at the All-22 of how they use players and how their scheme works. Too many candidates out there for me to do this for all possibilities.

-I think we spoke about the Roman Harper release. I'm warming up to the idea but I'm not sure it'll happen. We'd have a 3.5M cap hit over the 2013 and 2014 season if we let him go. At the end of the day, he's overpaid and his performance isn't matching his dollar amount.

-I disagree with the Hawthorne release. I just don't think people know what type of football player this guy can be. He's the most natural MIKE on our roster and is our best coverage LBer (now that Vilma has regressed). He's good against the run and the pass and an extremely smart player. I think he's going to prove a lot of people wrong this upcoming year.

-I don't know if Greer is a nickel corner. Can't just take CBs and move them around and expect them to be successful. Only a few guys like that in the league. He's more of a boundary guy and should probably stay there. He's still our best coverage CB.

-Bushrod. I'm actually of the belief that if we don't get him resigned, then we go with Brown. I'm one of the few people on this board that actually believes that he can get it done. He's a good pass blocker but needs work against the run. The biggest concern is that he can't stay healthy. If he has lingering health issues going into the offseason, then we have to address the LT position.

-DLP played as well as any of our offensive lineman this past season and I hope we are able to eventually lock him up. Stability.

-Ivory for a 2nd round pick? Not in a million years. I think at best, we got a 5th for him. And that may be a stretch.

-I'm not sure Okafur is a first round DE, especially not at #15. He's falls between the late 1st and early to mid 2nd round. That's be a MAJOR reach for us.

-If we select a RB in the 2nd, I'd fly to NOLA and start laying the smack down to some of the FO people. Also, that would be too much $$$ invested into the RB position.

-As for Martez to ILB, I think that would be a good for him in a subpackage since we'd potentially have other guys who can rush on the edge. Just because he is good in space and fast doesn't make him an ILB. You have to be cerebral and instinctive to play there. Your reads have to be right and you are two gapping guards. I think we need to treat Martez like a missle and give him a target and tell him to go get it until he gets comfortable - playing him at ILB wouldn't do that.

If we get Grantham he likes to play with a boundary corner/field corner.

We have several field corners on the roster. Greer,Patrick,Robinson are all field corners. The only potential boundary corner we have on the roster is Jenkins@ 6'0 200lbs. He would instantly be our best tackling corner..despite his well noted tackling issues and would only be asked to play the short side of the field. Its the reason i moved him back to corner.


Forgot about Corey White...but seriously. Does anyone think Corey White can play CB in this league?

 

[Blessedog]

If we get Grantham he likes to play with a boundary corner/field corner.

We have several field corners on the roster. Greer,Patrick,Robinson are all field corners. The only potential boundary corner we have on the roster is Jenkins@ 6'0 200lbs. He would instantly be our best tackling corner..despite his well noted tackling issues and would only be asked to play the short side of the field. Its the reason i moved him back to corner.


Forgot about Corey White...but seriously. Does anyone think Corey White can play CB in this league?

I believe Corey White was injured in the Atlanta game where he shut down whoever was lined across from him and came away with a terrific interception. I think if he continues to progress he could be a good corner and maybe even start one day.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I believe Corey White was injured in the Atlanta game where he shut down whoever was lined across from him and came away with a terrific interception. I think if he continues to progress he could be a good corner and maybe even start one day.

Im going to have to disagree on that one.

If im not mistaken he was covering a 1 route and used his speed to stay with the receiver. Made an excellent play on the ball...but nothing that shows me he can play corner.

Just showed me he has very good speed and can catch.

Everything i saw b4 that in every other game was him repeatedly getting torched in all places on the field.

could be wrong though.

 

[jt21]

Ignoring my thoughts on Okafor and the rest of the draft, 2 glaring issues with that offseason.

1) Ivory gets a 5th at best.

2) Using a theoretical 2nd round pick on a RB is laughable. RB is the most interchangeable position in the football. No easier position to plug in a late round/undrafted guy (which, by the way, the Saints have done as well as anyone in the league - see PT, Ivory, Cadet, among others). Have you not learned anything from the Mark Ingram pick? - Complete waste of a pick and set the Saints back. And Ingram could turn into Adrian Peterson this year and that wouldn't change.

Also, Erik Walden was probably the worst 3-4 OLB in the league this season in terms of pass rush.

 

[Danneaux]

Hawthorne has proven to be a very good player in the 3-4, and cutting him will cost us over 3 million in signing bonus alone. It only costs us 4.7 to keep him.

I doubt we'd find a comparable player for 1.7 million dollars.

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

Alex Ogletree who is considered one of the better ILB prospects played all world in Granthams defense. Similar body type as Wilson maybe a little better in coverage as he was a converted safety but also very similar scouting report

However one of the main knocks on Ogletree is that he lacks intincts/play recognition.

Now if Ogletree can be used in that same ILB role with college coaching then id like to assume that Martez with 3 years of NFL coaching as a similar player with similar physical attributes can do the same thing.


Im not doubting that Hawthorne can be a good/great ILB and im not doubting that he will return. Just from my vision im a what have you done for me lately kind of guy and the truth is ...he did NOTHING.

Spags was a similar situation...sure he had potential to do better in his 2nd year but the fact of the matter is he did nothing witih the opportunity that was given to him and he was canned...regardless if we were planning a 3-4 switch or not.

I see the same reasoning for hawthorne. He was brought in to play WLB in spags scheme didin't perform and IMHO doesn't deserve 4mil next year based off of his efforts this year.

Id rather keep Chamberlain and ask him to gain weight from 239 to about the 245 range and backup an ILB position and STILL play special teams. Lofton earned the right to return but i don't think Hawthorne did.


I wouldn't pick Okafor@ 14 either. Several passrushers with 1st round grades are going to slide. At least 2-3. Its why im advocating us to trade back to 22 and get some extra picks to help balance the lack of a 2nd rounder. @ 22 we shoudl still be able to get a 3rd down passrusher/future starter that ended up sliding. We can bring him along slowly.

Okafor@ 22 would be a bit of a reach but id rather get him b4 a team like the falcons pounce on him and he torments us for the next 10 yrs. We selected cam jordan around this area and he was more of a 2down player @ first. I think he could come in and Start@ SOLB but we wouldn't need him to if we signed a veteran to come in and start.

I haven't studied Olgetree enough to make any type of credible opinion on him. If he lacks instincts, then I'd rather pass on him. In college you can hide that stuff, in the NFL, that isn't the case. He'll get exposed FAST. He did look good in the Bowl game but that was just live TV and I wasn't keying in on him.

As for your stance on Hawthorne, I understand the what have you done for me lately approach, but I think you have to look at the whole story. 1) He was injured most of the year and probably played hurt throughout the year. 2) We had a DC who tried to make players fit his scheme and wouldn't make the necessary adjustments (even Payton said players weren't put in the best position to succeed). 3) He was brought in to play SAM and ended up playing WILL. Not the easiest thing to do when you've played MIKE and WILL your entire career.

I don't think you can compare him to Spags. Two absolutely different situation. Spags had the opportunity to make adjustments and tried to fit a square peg in a round hole. You said we brought Hawthorne in to play WLB, but he didn't play it. I think you have to put that into your equasion. This guy isn't a SAM backer. Vilma came back and it threw off the plan we had for him. I just don't get how you can write the guy off after seeing the circumstances he faced and, it's not like he wasn't a good player before he got to New Orleans. He didn't forget how to play football in a year. Heck, a couple of years ago, he was one of the top WILL LBers in football.

As for keeping Chamberlain, I'm not sure telling a guy to gain wait will automatically make him a fit for the scheme. We need to get rid of players that don't fit what we are doing and bring in players who fit our new scheme.

Finally, I'm TOTALLY against reaching for a player simply because you don't want a rival to get him. You draft and build your team to win your division, but that's where it stops.

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

Im going to have to disagree on that one.

If im not mistaken he was covering a 1 route and used his speed to stay with the receiver. Made an excellent play on the ball...but nothing that shows me he can play corner.

Just showed me he has very good speed and can catch.

Everything i saw b4 that in every other game was him repeatedly getting torched in all places on the field.

could be wrong though.

He was a rookie from Samford who was thrust into high minutes before he was ready to play. It naturally took him time to get used to the speed of the game. If you look at his last 3 games (DEN, PHI, and ATL) you'll see MAJOR improvements - he got hurt early in the ATL game but he was IMPRESSIVE before that. That was probably going to be his best game as a pro. It's a shame he got hurt for the year, he was just starting to come on. I think we have to see what we have with him. He definitely has the size and skills to play the position.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I tell u what...trying to figure out draft picks and needs is hard work. Makes my head hurt.

Not knowing the players that will be cut and FA makes the projections a lot harder.

If i were to go by the guys we interviewed @ the Senior Bowl/East west shrine game our Targets are: WR, NT, ILB, and RB.


I think im going to take a break though until we get further into the offseason. I enjoy the discussions so much though lol.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I haven't studied Olgetree enough to make any type of credible opinion on him. If he lacks instincts, then I'd rather pass on him. In college you can hide that stuff, in the NFL, that isn't the case. He'll get exposed FAST. He did look good in the Bowl game but that was just live TV and I wasn't keying in on him.

As for your stance on Hawthorne, I understand the what have you done for me lately approach, but I think you have to look at the whole story. 1) He was injured most of the year and probably played hurt throughout the year. 2) We had a DC who tried to make players fit his scheme and wouldn't make the necessary adjustments (even Payton said players weren't put in the best position to succeed). 3) He was brought in to play SAM and ended up playing WILL. Not the easiest thing to do when you've played MIKE and WILL your entire career.

I don't think you can compare him to Spags. Two absolutely different situation. Spags had the opportunity to make adjustments and tried to fit a square peg in a round hole. You said we brought Hawthorne in to play WLB, but he didn't play it. I think you have to put that into your equasion. This guy isn't a SAM backer. Vilma came back and it threw off the plan we had for him. I just don't get how you can write the guy off after seeing the circumstances he faced and, it's not like he wasn't a good player before he got to New Orleans. He didn't forget how to play football in a year. Heck, a couple of years ago, he was one of the top WILL LBers in football.

As for keeping Chamberlain, I'm not sure telling a guy to gain wait will automatically make him a fit for the scheme. We need to get rid of players that don't fit what we are doing and bring in players who fit our new scheme.

Finally, I'm TOTALLY against reaching for a player simply because you don't want a rival to get him. You draft and build your team to win your division, but that's where it stops.

Similar argument could be made for spags though. Less than ideal situation, played rather handicapped(spags was said to be handicapped becuz of our lack of talent)..so i that regards its easy to right him off considering the circumstances. He didn't perform...same as spags.

However to reach middle ground with u....i can see him playing in the middle of th 3-4. First time i brought up the thought i moved hawthorne there. ITs really just been a combo of me (a) not thinking Martez Wilson would make a good bookend for Gallete as he isn't a natural OLB/DE to me and (b) Id want someone bigger than Hawthorne and more of a sure tackler with longer arms and more speed.

Its all preference though.

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

I tell u what...trying to figure out draft picks and needs is hard work. Makes my head hurt.

Not knowing the players that will be cut and FA makes the projections a lot harder.

If i were to go by the guys we interviewed @ the Senior Bowl/East west shrine game our Targets are: WR, NT, ILB, and RB.


I think im going to take a break though until we get further into the offseason. I enjoy the discussions so much though lol.

Haha, yeah. It's not easy man. I've been playing with the idea of doing an offseason projection - I have a lot of opinions. I've never done one but it's a bit intriguing. I appreciate your contributions and the work your put in your post - rather I agree or disagree with them.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Hawthorne has proven to be a very good player in the 3-4, and cutting him will cost us over 3 million in signing bonus alone. It only costs us 4.7 to keep him.

I doubt we'd find a comparable player for 1.7 million dollars.

Tez is signed for less (550,000)but doesn't have the accolades/history that Hawthorne comes with.

Signing say a Pars Lenon@ the Vet Minimum would equal up to about around that. Two players for around 1.7 mil. Add Chris Chamberlains 1mil and u have 3 potential MLB's @ around 3mil plus what you are paying Lofton.

So cut him and it cost us 3mil or keep him and we spend 4.7 mil on a player that didn't prove much to us. If we end up paying a guy 7mil for 70 tackles in 2 season ill be ******.

If we keep him he better ball out of his mind or im going to scream he wasn't worth it.




http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/no/

^^ looking@ the #'s from here.

 

[Goatman Saint]

First, no way we use any pick on a RB. We already have 1 too many. Second, our CB play last year was sooo bad, where it wasn't do bad before, I'm willing to say our CBs are set. White is an up and comer, played with good speed and decent awareness all things considered. Jenkins is the question. I think he'd make a better SS with Quiddus being the better FS. However I doubt Harper is leaving. The need pick on the defense is OLB, as I'm not sure Gallette is good enough in coverage, and I m not sold on Wilson at all. Without that pressure I'm kinda worried about defense again. However, they were do bad last year, with a decent coach, and getting a scheme to their strengths I'm waiting to see.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

First, no way we use any pick on a RB. We already have 1 too many. Second, our CB play last year was sooo bad, where it wasn't do bad before, I'm willing to say our CBs are set. White is an up and comer, played with good speed and decent awareness all things considered. Jenkins is the question. I think he'd make a better SS with Quiddus being the better FS. However I doubt Harper is leaving. The need pick on the defense is OLB, as I'm not sure Gallette is good enough in coverage, and I m not sold on Wilson at all. Without that pressure I'm kinda worried about defense again. However, they were do bad last year, with a decent coach, and getting a scheme to their strengths I'm waiting to see.

Yeah it was a panic pick...too many sources to many ideas thus all the trades and extra picks and stuff.

I think we will go back to the 3back approach we had in 2006-2007 with

Ingram/Sproles/Thomas like Deuce/Bush/Stecker sharing all the carries and Cadet being our 4th back. If one of these guys gets injured though we are immediately thin. Thats why i think we pick up another RB @ somepoint in time. Probably be better to draft a guy late and stash him on the practice squad or get a UDFA but i expect us to bring some RB's in.

 

[mountaineerdude]

your draft is so pathetic its not even funny ...... even if somehow we find a way to get the 2nd round pick back, you really wanna spend that on a RB?? ..... and no way HAWTHORNE's walking .....

 

[CanadaSaint2006]

OP, hats off to you for an ambitious and detailed plan. Not that I agree with all of it, but thorough work. I don't have the attention span to follow the whole thread though!