i dont think drafting and gettin a CB in free agency is what this defense needs (2 Viewers)

[birdog]

Jason David was playing Tampa 2 which makes most CB's look good.

The zone D, as the Tampa 2 scheme is devised to cover the initial stages of a passing play. If the QB has time to wait for the WR to run out of the zone covered by the defense, then the zone D no longer remains active, as the WR is no longer in the zone covered by the defense. In that case the zone D becomes man to man, as the secondary player tries to stay as close as possible to the WR. We tried to use certain zone Ds in our coverage scheme at times, but our zone D became ineffective once the WR went outside the zone covered. That's when you saw JD was beaten by 10+ yds as the QB had enough time to wait for the WR to run his route......

but you are correct in general a zone D makes a CB look better at the initial stages of coverage at certain times.....

 

[birdog]

As far as the whole situation goes I think what we lack is inside pressure and a LB that can rush the passer. Sim and Shanle are not very good at rushing the passer and without Young we allowed every QB to step up and have a picnic while waiting for someone to get open. Jason David was pathetic with or without pressure but I will say Bullocks and Harper suffered from a lack of pressure much of the season. Bottom line with MM hurt we need to bring in at least a MLB, OLB to compete with Shanle, a 2 CB's one to replace David and one to get us through the MM out period and at least 1 DT that can play the 3 tech and create a push inside if we want anything close to a legit D.

It is true, but I would like to add the DEs play to the mix as well. At certain times out edge rush was non existent! I remember listening on Sirius as Pat Kirwan called out Will Smith after the stats had shown that Will had but 1 sack for the past 7 games....."C'MON WILL....MAKE A PLAY!! yelled Kirwan
when he commented on Will Smith's play.

 

[Saints382]

Thats why Corey Williams should be our PRIMARY target in FA.

Get a pass-rush at DT as well then just only DE's.

 

[GoldRush26]

I biggest need is to run a scheme that best fits the talent we have.

This is true. On the same hand, the talent on the team needs to do what's expected of them. If they can't/won't, then it's time to get better talent in here.

The upgrading should start with the d-line, so I agree with the OP. The team can have the best corners in the NFL, but if they aren't getting pressure on the QB, it won't mean that much. Conversely if the d-line gets consistent pressure on the QB, the secondary's weaknesses will be minimized. There's no way they should go S or CB with our first round pick unless our D-line is shored up. But in the big picture, we should look to upgrade both this offseason if possible.

 

[State Of Affairs]

Not that i have the final word but you can argue chicken egg theory all day. I think Grant and Smith are good but if you don't have a push to get the QB to step into pressure, edge pressure means nothing! Pass rush is only effective as a unit. Don't get me wrong, there are some special guys who can get up the field and make a play without help but generally speaking everything works as a unit. Inside push makes outside pressure effective, outside pressure makes coverage look better.

Having said that it's all about the unit. I don't think anyone would argue that if you're going to start an upgrade, you start by stoping the run first because I don't care how good or bad you are, it's harder to convert 3rd and 8 then 3rd and 3.

Give me a good DT like Ellis from USC and let him stop the run then collapse the pocket on the pass, makes the DE's and the DB's better. Then give me a LB in the second round.

This is what I would do but gosh, as I say it, I don't know how we go another year without upgrading the CB position. I am high on Young but will he be ready in his second year to be a solid starter. Can we find another UY that can play pretty quickly.

 

[brianw37]

It is true, but I would like to add the DEs play to the mix as well. At certain times out edge rush was non existent! I remember listening on Sirius as Pat Kirwan called out Will Smith after the stats had shown that Will had but 1 sack for the past 7 games....."C'MON WILL....MAKE A PLAY!! yelled Kirwan
when he commented on Will Smith's play.

but honestly our dbs cant hold their own one on one and that's where the problems arise. our line is not a bad line, our starters were hobbled all year, yes we could use more quality depth but as a whole its a good unit. our secondary isnt very good even when healthy. that area is in much greater need than anywhere else, altho we could get better at linebacker also.

 

[birdog]

Not that i have the final word but you can argue chicken egg theory all day. I think Grant and Smith are good but if you don't have a push to get the QB to step into pressure, edge pressure means nothing! Pass rush is only effective as a unit. Don't get me wrong, there are some special guys who can get up the field and make a play without help but generally speaking everything works as a unit. Inside push makes outside pressure effective, outside pressure makes coverage look better.

Having said that it's all about the unit. I don't think anyone would argue that if you're going to start an upgrade, you start by stoping the run first because I don't care how good or bad you are, it's harder to convert 3rd and 8 then 3rd and 3.

Give me a good DT like Ellis from USC and let him stop the run then collapse the pocket on the pass, makes the DE's and the DB's better. Then give me a LB in the second round.

This is what I would do but gosh, as I say it, I don't know how we go another year without upgrading the CB position. I am high on Young but will he be ready in his second year to be a solid starter. Can we find another UY that can play pretty quickly.

I don't disagree with anything you say, I sure hope the coaches are serious to bring in new blood, and more capable players.....Simoneau just won't cut it....and frankly neither Bullocks!

But the pressure up-front is the mover of all things.....as I said, we had no idea about JD's man to man coverage skills....

 

[Super Dad]

It is true, but I would like to add the DEs play to the mix as well. At certain times out edge rush was non existent! I remember listening on Sirius as Pat Kirwan called out Will Smith after the stats had shown that Will had but 1 sack for the past 7 games....."C'MON WILL....MAKE A PLAY!! yelled Kirwan
when he commented on Will Smith's play.

Agreed but if we had a DT that could push the pocket teams would not be able to double him. Another thing that killed our line is injury, while Young 's missing time showed Grant played but was very ineffective with that ankle and he was just not himself when he came back. Needs
MLB
DT
CB

DE
FS

The first three have to happen but a FS and young speed rush guy for 3rd down.

 

[kooldak]

Have you noticed how bad JD was while playing in Indy? I sure didn't......and no one has warned us about JD!.

The DE's play determines how good a CB can play......All the arguments that he was in a zone D, loses all credibility when the QB has time to wait for the WR to run his route. Then all the zone D dissapears, and changes to a man to man D.......we have seen the results with the Saints, when the QB had all the time in the world to throw....the difference was that in Indy, Freeney, and the Colts DL never gave that much time for a QB to disect the secondary......so we never knew just how bad JD was covering man to man....

Not true. Some of us knew exactly what we were getting. I had watched every game JD played while at Indy (also a Colts fan) and this is what I had to say about him before we signed him (bold added for this quote):

Yes, he has. But like I said earlier, he is not the answer (IMHO) long term in that position. I'd love to have him as depth. He starts because the Colts have nothing better behind him.

He is somewhat protected by the cover-2 D the Colts play. He'll be much more exposed in our D. That is not a good thing. David does not play great man-to-man.

Again IMHO, he is better than any of our current CBs 'cept MM and would be a good addition. But he has some significant weaknesses in his game that will show if he has to play as our starter. I'd like to have him for the depth he would provide, assuming we can find a starting caliber CB who better fits our system. If we can't find that player, then David would be an upgrade over FT. Just not the answer long term.

Having seen every game that he has played in the NFL (I'm also a Colts fan) I can almost guarantee we will not be happy if we play the season with him as our starter.

JMO.

Talent on the DL and QB pressure can help coverage issues. But we have serious problems at several DB positions, especially with questions about MM being able to return. You need some talent at both spots. Upgrading the DL alone will not fix our problems. We need extensive help at several spots - including CB.

 

[birdog]

Not true. Some of us knew exactly what we were getting. I had watched every game JD played while at Indy (also a Colts fan) and this is what I had to say about him before we signed him (bold added for this quote):





Talent on the DL and QB pressure can help coverage issues. But we have serious problems at several DB positions, especially with questions about MM being able to return. You need some talent at both spots. Upgrading the DL alone will not fix our problems. We need extensive help at several spots - including CB.

I have to admit...I missed out reading your post on JD! I haven't read other publications on him which were negative as your assessment! I will pay a lot closer attention to what you have to say in the future........BUT EVERYTHING I HEARD AND READ WAS THAT JD, although he wasn't a splashy signing, was solid! Today those very same people call him practice squad material.....

You might very well be right about getting better at the CB position......question is when? In the draft starting at the 1st rd, or FA? needs usually are addressed in the FA, so getting better at the CB position might start with the FA.

 

[unome_brother]

Have you noticed how bad JD was while playing in Indy? I sure didn't......and no one has warned us about JD!

The DE's play determines how good a CB can play......All the arguments that he was in a zone D, loses all credibility when the QB has time to wait for the WR to run his route. Then all the zone D dissapears, and changes to a man to man D.......we have seen the results with the Saints, when the QB had all the time in the world to throw....the difference was that in Indy, Freeney, and the Colts DL never gave that much time for a QB to disect the secondary......so we never knew just how bad JD was covering man to man....

Actually I had a couple of my Colts friends tell me he was horrible after we signed him. I thought they were just jealous. They still laugh at me about us paying him that much

 

[marccooper]

It is beyond obvious that we need a couple new corners. We also need more speed, coverage ability, and overall skill from our linebackers and secondary so that we can do blitz packages that opposing defenses do not expect. With no real threats coming from beyond our defensive line and with such a lack of coverage skill on our defense that we cannot afford to let anyone blitz, we are just predictable. We can't ONLY bring pressure from our defensive line. It's about time that this 'chocolate city' didn't have the most Vanilla Defense in the NFL. So, imagine pressure coming from someone other than the defensive line. Imagine a linebacker with some speed. Imagine a corner capable of occasional man coverage so his safety can blitz. Imagine a safety with the speed and instinct to blitz or cover, not just stand there and wait for the chance to tackle after long gains. Imagine a defensive coordinator who's next job would not be at a small college program if we let him go. Too bad we cannot get that last one. We have the Carl Smith of defensive stategy. A man who would consider the defensive options offered in Tecmo Bowl for NES to be too complex, risky, and unconventional, preferring a less varied approach. Oh well. Maybe it is hopeless with Gibbs and we should just spend all the picks on offense and try to score 50 points a game.

 

[DarkBuddha]

Having said that it's all about the unit. I don't think anyone would argue that if you're going to start an upgrade, you start by stoping the run first because I don't care how good or bad you are, it's harder to convert 3rd and 8 then 3rd and 3.

I like stopping the run and I thought we did a decent job at it most of the year. however, I was more scared of 3rd and 8 then 3rd and 3. I never understood why teams with a good QB and a WR didnt just go deep on JD ever time until we consistently stopped it. I know the NFL is not madden but come on, it looked easy, even for 2-3 string QBs.

 

[SuperQuincy]

we need to really bolster the d line so they can consistently pressure the qb w/ a 4 man rush we need to really strengthen the front 7 and the secondary should be able to work itself back up to its #10 rated pass defense like 2006

No Mckenzie until 2009, and Jason David starting the other side opposite of who, Usama Young, Jason Craft. I know it start in the trenches and I to would like to bolster the line. But we clearly need a corner actually we need 2.

 

[number1saints]

i agree we need a corner but i mean our secondary was near as bad as 2006 when will smith had a career year and we were in the top ten in sacks, more sacks=better pass defense no matter who is playin IMO

also i think david will rebound next year to be a good cb look at MM he had a terrible 2005 season and rebounded to have one of the best YPA in the league