I Have Never Like the Way Payton's Teams Have Run (1 Viewer)

mdharper

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Sean is a pass guy. The run is just to open up the pass or vice versa.

That's okay, but I say it can be done smarter.

Do you know what made Deuce McAllister a better runner than Ricky Williams? Deuce was always looking for the cutback. Ricky ran to the strength.

Ricky Williams was only as good as the blocking in front of him. Deuce could cut away from a "push" situation and pick up big yards.

Well the cutback can be a call.

As it stands, Sean Payton's run calls telegraph the point of attack. The run (almost) always goes there (enough so defenses don't have to worry). If he'd call a little more misdirection, and I'm not talking reverses, and let our runners get one-on-one with the linebackers, it would not only produce more explosive running plays, it would slow down the pursuit on the "point-of-attack" plays.

If an NFL defense lines up to stop a particular running play, that play will be lucky to pick up two yards. If you keep them guessing where a run is going to hit the line, you're going to pick up yards and bust a few. You can use "match-up" plays in the run, just like you do in the pass.

As it stands, I can tell where every Saint run is going three steps into the execution of a run play. If I can see it, NFL linebackers can see it. That may be great for play-action passing, but it sure hurts the running game.

I was really hoping a couple of seasons back when the Saints said they were going to a zone-blocking scheme that this was going to change. Zone-blocking is all about looking for the cutback lane. Never materialized.

Dear Sean,
My birthday is coming up. All I want is to see some plays where the line goes one way, and the run goes the other. I think it would help all.

Thanks.
 

St.Dan

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All true. Right down to the breakdown of the cutback runs.

But Deuce only had one full season with a competent field general handing him the football, too. I think if Deuce was honest with ya he'd prefer to run against DTs and LB's who've run themselves ragged chasing slot receivers all over the yard....hence making second-half rushing stats easier to come by :)
 

0rion

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I agree.....there hasn't been near enough emphasis on getting our running game going. You can say you're dedicated to the run game and have the players for it but if you hand off right into the teeth of the defense you're not doing yourself any favors. Our run game depends on missed assignments and tackles. We run right at their strengths. Time to make D's start guessing what we're doing.
 

Outbackjack

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Very insightful post.

I really want to go back and watch our run plays last season.....but this makes alot of sense.
 

ndcc

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You have NEVER liked the way they have pounded the rock?

Our '09 SB team, and our juggernaut '11 teams BOTH ranked 6th of 32 teams in rushing the NFL

NFL 2009 Team rushing stats: NFL Stats: by Team Category

NFL 2011 Team rushing stats: NFL Stats: by Team Category

I'd be on board with most of your argument if you hadn't thrown all of our teams' rushing efforts under Payton in the dumpster.

:gosaints:
 
OP
mdharper

mdharper

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You have NEVER liked the way they have pounded the rock?

Our '09 SB team, and our juggernaut '11 teams BOTH ranked 6th of 32 teams in rushing the NFL

NFL 2009 Team rushing stats: NFL Stats: by Team Category

NFL 2011 Team rushing stats: NFL Stats: by Team Category

I'd be on board with most of your argument if you hadn't thrown all of our teams' rushing efforts under Payton in the dumpster.
I'm not saying you can't have a great line, buckle down the chin-strap, and have success running. Especially if you can throw the ball.

I am suggesting you can't maintain that. And that you'd do better calling a few run plays that were not so much like a rugby scrum.
 

Raymond

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You have NEVER liked the way they have pounded the rock?

Our '09 SB team, and our juggernaut '11 teams BOTH ranked 6th of 32 teams in rushing the NFL

NFL 2009 Team rushing stats: NFL Stats: by Team Category

NFL 2011 Team rushing stats: NFL Stats: by Team Category

I'd be on board with most of your argument if you hadn't thrown all of our teams' rushing efforts under Payton in the dumpster.

:gosaints:
Alot of people like to quote "stats" from these 2 years to say we were a great running team under Sean. However there was only one year under Sean that we were even close to a running team and that that was actually 06'.

Hear me out. 06' Drew was working his way back from a major shoulder injury and Sean truly dedicated a balanced attack ro assist Drew and probably because at the time he didn't exactly know what he had in him. Our entire team was fairly new and young. Sean had Duece and Reggie and wanted to find a balance of the thunder with the lighting. And with the help of that balanced running attack we didn't beat the sleeves off everyone, but we won and made it to the playoffs. We didn't have the team to dominate on offense, but with the proper balance we became one of the best in the league and Drew became Drew.

Now fast forward 3 years, we are an offensive juggernaut and Drew just surpassed the 5000 yard mark. We find an opportunistic defense thanks to GW and Sean knows what he has in Drew and since 07 and losing Duece has since given up on a true sense of balance. But we start putting up 40 burgers on everybody and being so high up in the 3rd and 4th quarters we start to pound it with Mike Bell and Co because we are just trying to close out the game. Not because we were a dominant running team "as the stats would have to believe "

We were not a running team or even close in 09' under Sean. The only year it was close was 06' only because he truly wanted to help out Drew and not put it all on his shoulders. If only Sean would decide to truly help out Drew again and dedicate to a running game, reverse the way our offense works and use the run to open the pass we would truly be unstoppable with Drew under center for at least 5 more years.

I've gone off topic s bit, sorry, but it's gets really old hearing how great a running team we had in 09 and 11, we have always, minus 07 and 08, had the backs that could make us a great running team, but we haven't had an offensive coordinator with the balls to call those plays.

Except for when Sean wasn't calling them, remember when he allowed Pete Carmichael to, our running game was truly dominate. Just sayin.
 

SaintStephen1

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I agree completely with OP. Early on in the Payton era the Saints had Bush come in motion across the formation frequently with the threat of handing the ball to him causing the defense to read that handoff/fake. Why don't we see that anymore?
 

Meachemdat

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Honestly what this team needs is for people to start blocking and get our screen game back to where it was. Ingram was averaging 4.6 yards per carry last year and 8 yards an attempt receiving.

That's plenty of production, but our offense excelled when the screen game got going to supplement the run game.

When the defense stopped the run game we would go screen to stop the blitz, that would in turn set up the run and in turn set up play action. That's when this offense would heat up.

Our o-line, TE's and WR's need to start blocking come regular season.
 

Aussaint

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Alot of people like to quote "stats" from these 2 years to say we were a great running team under Sean. However there was only one year under Sean that we were even close to a running team and that that was actually 06'.

Hear me out. 06' Drew was working his way back from a major shoulder injury and Sean truly dedicated a balanced attack ro assist Drew and probably because at the time he didn't exactly know what he had in him. Our entire team was fairly new and young. Sean had Duece and Reggie and wanted to find a balance of the thunder with the lighting. And with the help of that balanced running attack we didn't beat the sleeves off everyone, but we won and made it to the playoffs. We didn't have the team to dominate on offense, but with the proper balance we became one of the best in the league and Drew became Drew.

Now fast forward 3 years, we are an offensive juggernaut and Drew just surpassed the 5000 yard mark. We find an opportunistic defense thanks to GW and Sean knows what he has in Drew and since 07 and losing Duece has since given up on a true sense of balance. But we start putting up 40 burgers on everybody and being so high up in the 3rd and 4th quarters we start to pound it with Mike Bell and Co because we are just trying to close out the game. Not because we were a dominant running team "as the stats would have to believe "

We were not a running team or even close in 09' under Sean. The only year it was close was 06' only because he truly wanted to help out Drew and not put it all on his shoulders. If only Sean would decide to truly help out Drew again and dedicate to a running game, reverse the way our offense works and use the run to open the pass we would truly be unstoppable with Drew under center for at least 5 more years.

I've gone off topic s bit, sorry, but it's gets really old hearing how great a running team we had in 09 and 11, we have always, minus 07 and 08, had the backs that could make us a great running team, but we haven't had an offensive coordinator with the balls to call those plays.

Except for when Sean wasn't calling them, remember when he allowed Pete Carmichael to, our running game was truly dominate. Just sayin.
Huh?? We did have a great running team in 09. Teams knew we would run in the 3rd and 4th and still couldn't stop us.
 

dtc

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Do you know what made Deuce McAllister a better runner than Ricky Williams? Deuce was always looking for the cutback. Ricky ran to the strength.

Ricky Williams was only as good as the blocking in front of him. Deuce could cut away from a "push" situation and pick up big yards.
Deuce was a great Saint, but Ricky was always a better back.
 

bobad

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Sean is a pass guy. The run is just to open up the pass or vice versa.

That's okay, but I say it can be done smarter.

Until the blocking gets better, how can we blame the scheme or anything else?


A good O-line can make any coach look like a genius.


We need a pair of 6'2" guards with short, thick legs that can push a cement truck.
 

HouseCall

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The Saints running game has always been "set-up", if you will, by the passing game. The traditional west-coast offense employs short passes to the running backs in the flat as a replacement for several off-tackle rushes. So teams that run a version of that offense tend to have unbalanced rushing totals. We've relied heavily on short passes and check-downs more recently.

However, as mentioned, in 09' and 11' our overall success was attributed to our ability to grind out games and give our defense multiple breaks. Our offensive lines in those seasons were stellar. Oddly enough, both of those seasons involved a projected starter being replaced early on -- 09' Bushrod replaced Jamal Brown and in 11' Olin Kreutz was replaced by De La Puente.
 

bobad

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I agree completely with OP. Early on in the Payton era the Saints had Bush come in motion across the formation frequently with the threat of handing the ball to him causing the defense to read that handoff/fake. Why don't we see that anymore?

I don't fully agree with the OP, but I agree that misdirection used to work great for our running game. Problem with that is, a dynamic WR or RB are needed to make that work. We don't seem to have that type of RB on the roster. Cooks has the speed, but we need someone with more wiggle and tackle breaking ability. When there is no serious threat to the misdirection, the defense just stays home.
 

sterlr

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Reason run game is bad

is because we have no road graders on our Oline. Sean is and will always be a pass first minded coach...hence the drafting of pass first type linemen. When he first got here because of Drew's arm and Deuce being here we drafted road graders (Evans, Nicks). They taught them to pass block. Now, look at what they've added. Drew was 100% and Payton got what he really wanted and look where it has gotten us. Now he's blamed everyone (D coord, players, position coaches) for the bad records over the last few seasons. You can't win in the NFL with a Run-n-Shoot mentality, there has to some type of balance. It all starts up front... FIRST with road graders. Sean needs to look at his original blueprint and repeat.
 

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