I Have Never Like the Way Payton's Teams Have Run (1 Viewer)

[sterlr]

Reason run game is bad

is because we have no road graders on our Oline. Sean is and will always be a pass first minded coach...hence the drafting of pass first type linemen. When he first got here because of Drew's arm and Deuce being here we drafted road graders (Evans, Nicks). They taught them to pass block. Now, look at what they've added. Drew was 100% and Payton got what he really wanted and look where it has gotten us. Now he's blamed everyone (D coord, players, position coaches) for the bad records over the last few seasons. You can't win in the NFL with a Run-n-Shoot mentality, there has to some type of balance. It all starts up front... FIRST with road graders. Sean needs to look at his original blueprint and repeat.

 

[blackadder]

is because we have no road graders on our Oline. Sean is and will always be a pass first minded coach...hence the drafting of pass first type linemen. When he first got here because of Drew's arm and Deuce being here we drafted road graders (Evans, Nicks). They taught them to pass block. Now, look at what they've added. Drew was 100% and Payton got what he really wanted and look where it has gotten us. Now he's blamed everyone (D coord, players, position coaches) for the bad records over the last few seasons. You can't win in the NFL with a Run-n-Shoot mentality, there has to some type of balance. It all starts up front... FIRST with road graders. Sean needs to look at his original blueprint and repeat.

It got us a lot of passing stats but struggles with 3-4 defenses and a period where we fell behind Seattle and SF because we couldn't play physical football with them and contend the LOS.

Even the Super Bowl year the difference to get over the hump was the turnovers gathered by the defense and the ability to run behind Nicks and Evans, although most of those ground yards came later in the game when managing big lead.

We always would have benefitted more and maybe have more rings if we were a more balanced offense that could be more effective when we run the ball.

Consistency, effectiveness and efficiency in the ground game has been a weak spot for this program and without a Brees to compensate would have hurt us a lot more than it has over the last 10 years.

 

[Marlboro Man]

Part of the problem without running backs is that they all run towards the line and then stop for some reason then they try to cut in a different direction but all of their momentum is lost they can't drive through a tackler. The other thing is that when we used to run the ball really good we had this play where they would start left or right and get the defense to flow in that direction and then have the fullback peel off to the to the opposite direction block out the trailing defensive end or linebacker and the running back would also cut back to the opposite direction and run behind that block we always made good yardage on those plays I don't know why we don't do it anymore.

 

[cygnus_ltb]

The problem with the running game is the poor play of the offensive line of late. Outside of Armstead and Unger, the line is slow, unathletic and miss crucial blocks.

 

[Saintshizzle]

I don't fully agree with the OP, but I agree that misdirection used to work great for our running game. Problem with that is, a dynamic WR or RB are needed to make that work. We don't seem to have that type of RB on the roster. Cooks has the speed, but we need someone with more wiggle and tackle breaking ability. When there is no serious threat to the misdirection, the defense just stays home.

Misdirection run plays won't work, unless the offensive line can maneuver the defense. When you constantly see defenses that can penetrate your line, the cutbacks, misdirection, even flee-flickers are subject to fail...bc too many folks are back there. The only option, when lines fail like that, is to use the defenses aggression against them, such as draw plays where you want to draw the defense in, play action and screens...which we have been doing.

 

[CountWhoDat]

Honestly what this team needs is for people to start blocking and get our screen game back to where it was. Ingram was averaging 4.6 yards per carry last year and 8 yards an attempt receiving.

That's plenty of production, but our offense excelled when the screen game got going to supplement the run game.

When the defense stopped the run game we would go screen to stop the blitz, that would in turn set up the run and in turn set up play action. That's when this offense would heat up.

Our o-line, TE's and WR's need to start blocking come regular season.

It makes me sad sometimes thinking about what prime Deuce could have done as a screen back in this offense. That would have been the most dangerous weapon in our arsenal for years. But it wasn't to be. Remember how frustrating it was watching us try to execute a screen during the Haz years?

When you prioritize a dangerous passing game based on a mix of short-to-intermediate passing mixed with the occasional long bomb, your run game statistics are going to suffer.

It becomes an issue is when you want to run the ball a lot but cannot do so successfully. Would it surprise you to know that we were 9th in YPA in 2014 and 26th in 2013?

2011 was our most effective rushing year at 4th in YPA, but we were also 20th in attempts. I would say that was a pretty ideal offense, wouldn't you? This actually surprised me: in 2006, we were pretty putrid on a per carry basis, averaging only 3.7 YPA good for 26th in the league. But we ran the ball a lot more.

Is that the answer? I'm not sure, but I don't believe in forced balance. I think our success running in 2011 had a lot to do with our guard combo, but also the wear and tear than a consistently dominant passing attack has on a defense.

BTW, interesting aside: our run defense was god-awful in 06, allowing 4.9 per carry, which was second worst in the league. Our pass defense, on the other hand, was 3rd best in the league in yards allowed, but mostly because no one really bothered to throw on us. It kinda doesn't jive with the perception of how that season went. Also makes it more amazing IMO that we made it to the NFC Championship with a defense that struggled so much to stop the run.

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

Alot of people like to quote "stats" from these 2 years to say we were a great running team under Sean. However there was only one year under Sean that we were even close to a running team and that that was actually 06'.

Hear me out. 06' Drew was working his way back from a major shoulder injury and Sean truly dedicated a balanced attack ro assist Drew and probably because at the time he didn't exactly know what he had in him. Our entire team was fairly new and young. Sean had Duece and Reggie and wanted to find a balance of the thunder with the lighting. And with the help of that balanced running attack we didn't beat the sleeves off everyone, but we won and made it to the playoffs. We didn't have the team to dominate on offense, but with the proper balance we became one of the best in the league and Drew became Drew.

Now fast forward 3 years, we are an offensive juggernaut and Drew just surpassed the 5000 yard mark. We find an opportunistic defense thanks to GW and Sean knows what he has in Drew and since 07 and losing Duece has since given up on a true sense of balance. But we start putting up 40 burgers on everybody and being so high up in the 3rd and 4th quarters we start to pound it with Mike Bell and Co because we are just trying to close out the game. Not because we were a dominant running team "as the stats would have to believe "

We were not a running team or even close in 09' under Sean. The only year it was close was 06' only because he truly wanted to help out Drew and not put it all on his shoulders. If only Sean would decide to truly help out Drew again and dedicate to a running game, reverse the way our offense works and use the run to open the pass we would truly be unstoppable with Drew under center for at least 5 more years.

I've gone off topic s bit, sorry, but it's gets really old hearing how great a running team we had in 09 and 11, we have always, minus 07 and 08, had the backs that could make us a great running team, but we haven't had an offensive coordinator with the balls to call those plays.

Except for when Sean wasn't calling them, remember when he allowed Pete Carmichael to, our running game was truly dominate. Just sayin.

Your argument for 09 doesn't work. After about halfway through the season we weren't destroying teams as often, we were having to claw our way to victory. Plus earlier in the year against Buffalo PT had over 100 yards rushing in the 2nd half alone. Plus that was a very good defense that we couldn't pass on, we HAD to run the ball and run it well to win, which we did.

 

[Raymond]

Huh?? We did have a great running team in 09. Teams knew we would run in the 3rd and 4th and still couldn't stop us.

C'mon man. When an offense is up 20+ points the defense always plays prevent. I never said we didn't have great backs for it. We always have under Sean minus 07 and 08, but the only time we had true offensive balance was 06'.

 

[Raymond]

Your argument for 09 doesn't work. After about halfway through the season we weren't destroying teams as often, we were having to claw our way to victory. Plus earlier in the year against Buffalo PT had over 100 yards rushing in the 2nd half alone. Plus that was a very good defense that we couldn't pass on, we HAD to run the ball and run it well to win, which we did.

We have always have the backs to be great running team under Sean minus 07 and 08, but never the rarely a commitment by Sean. And yes Buffalo had to run on to win, so Sean committed, he has done that in spurts, but never fully committed.

 

[Raymond]

It makes me sad sometimes thinking about what prime Deuce could have done as a screen back in this offense. That would have been the most dangerous weapon in our arsenal for years. But it wasn't to be. Remember how frustrating it was watching us try to execute a screen during the Haz years?

When you prioritize a dangerous passing game based on a mix of short-to-intermediate passing mixed with the occasional long bomb, your run game statistics are going to suffer.

It becomes an issue is when you want to run the ball a lot but cannot do so successfully. Would it surprise you to know that we were 9th in YPA in 2014 and 26th in 2013?

2011 was our most effective rushing year at 4th in YPA, but we were also 20th in attempts. I would say that was a pretty ideal offense, wouldn't you? This actually surprised me: in 2006, we were pretty putrid on a per carry basis, averaging only 3.7 YPA good for 26th in the league. But we ran the ball a lot more.

Is that the answer? I'm not sure, but I don't believe in forced balance. I think our success running in 2011 had a lot to do with our guard combo, but also the wear and tear than a consistently dominant passing attack has on a defense.

BTW, interesting aside: our run defense was god-awful in 06, allowing 4.9 per carry, which was second worst in the league. Our pass defense, on the other hand, was 3rd best in the league in yards allowed, but mostly because no one really bothered to throw on us. It kinda doesn't jive with the perception of how that season went. Also makes it more amazing IMO that we made it to the NFC Championship with a defense that struggled so much to stop the run.

lus-un2:

 

[ndcc]

Deuce was a great Saint, but Ricky was always a better back.

I guess you're going for the inside track for most red thumbs, eh?

 

[CountWhoDat]

I shouldn't even venture down this path and its off-topic, but Ricky was an incredibly good halfback who would be an eventual HOFer if it wasn't for the NFL's obstinate refusal to acknowledge the medical value of cannabis. He missed out on two years of his prime because of that, and he'd have at minimum 12,000 yards if it wasn't for that. He had a 1000+ yard year averaging 4.7 per carry at the age of 32(!) in 2009.

The fact that we traded a draft away for him jaundiced our view of Ricky's career, but he was utterly terrifying in his first few years in Miami. The pain was lessened by getting Deuce only a few years later. What a crazy thing in retrospect; could you imagine if a team traded even half the picks we did to draft a running back today?

 

[mdharper]

I'm not saying Sean Payton hasn't had success running the ball. I'm just saying I don't like it when the majority of his run designs telegraph the point of attack. If you have the horses to just run over someone and make them dedicate more players to stop it, it works. It just lacks imagination. I'd rather keep them off balance with a mix of misdirection thrown in. Line flow goes one way, back cuts against it instead of ALWAYS running with the flow unless it's a pass-action run. It's more a question of style I guess.

 

[Flipx99]

Deuce was a great Saint, but Ricky was always a better back.

Knowing what we now know, if they were coming out in the draft at the same time I would take Deuce over RW with no hesitation.

 

[Mikie17]

"I Have Never Like the Way Payton's Teams Have Run"

I agree with most of this statement but I don't agree with "never". As of late, Payton's running schemes have not worked effectively. Hopefully, Ingram can be that back we have been missing since Deuce's departure. I'm not saying that Ingram = Deuce, but we need him to fill that gap. Just like Deuce did when Rickey left.