I'd take Vick as our QB (2 Viewers)

[Saint Tex]

It would be like old times--a qb who can't read a defense, is inconsistent with his passes, not much a leader, and is good enough to keep both teams in the game. The upgrade would be that his rushing ability is better than what we had with Brooks.

I'm gonna pass. I'm starting to like the feeling that we might not throw a game away by doing something stupid. It's a strange feeling, but I'm definitely starting to like it.

Oh, yeah--that moving the chains thing is growing on me, too.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

Yes....


Convert him to CB!

 

[st.randy]

I totally agree about the footwork part. I was watching him Sunday, and most of the time, he doesn't even get settled before he throws the football. On the other hand if you notice Brees, it's like watching poetry in motion. He is always in position, and accurate with his throws. Forget Vick, he just isn't what I would call an outstanding QB. He is mediocre at best.

Great point, ask bill walsh. The QB position starts with the feet.

 

[jlam]

This is what I posted on a Falcons board.

The agony of inconsistency

In 2000 the Saints overhauled the roster, Jim Haslett was the new coach, we had a new QB, a great offensive line, Ricky Williams and Deuce, Joe Horn was some WR from Kansas City that didn't play much until he got to New Orleans, Aaron Brooks was some guy we got from Green Bay and the one thing the Ditka era left was good offensive and defensive lines. Well the Saints made the most unlikely of runs beating the Rams in the first playoff victory in franchise history.

Instead of finishing what the new coaching staff and front office started in 2000 they decided that we had a young up in coming team and would stay put with what we have making minor changes. Over the next few years the Saints slowly let their great offensive line become average, decide we didn't need some of our defensive players because Aaron Brooks was the type of QB that could overcome a bad defense.

We started seasons strong, had a good running game in place and defense that a womans volleyball team could take advantage of. It was exciting football and Aaron Brooks could wow you with his play but sometimes he would make you scratch your head and turn your stomach inside out with disgust.

Then it happened. Three consecutive years of heart tearing .500 football. We would start the season on fire, we would think nobody could stop us, we would beat teams like the Tampa Super Bowl team twice and then we would lose to the Arizona Cardinals or the Raiders and justify it as a bad game. Sometimes we would bounce back, sometimes we would not. Sometimes after the bad performance it gave teams a blue print on how to beat Aaron Brooks and the Saints and we would drop 2-3 games we should have won before we realized how to beat this new gameplan we were facing. After AB would have two or three straight bad games he would come out on fire and have a game in which he throws 3 TD's that no other QB in the NFL could have thrown. He would scramble around see an receiver 30 yards downfield and make a throw that could be compared to a laser guided missle for a come from behind win. Sure was fun when we won but when we lost their was the finger pointing, the fighting on the team plane and in practice and a feeling of discomfort when looking at the team.

AB had a shoulder problem and the coaches let him play through it becuase all we had to do was win one of 4 games down the stretch to make the playoffs and all 4 teams were horrible. Jake Delhomme rode the bench questioning why he was there if he wasn't going to play when the starting QB was hurt, the team asked the same questions in the back of their heads and the fans scream for heads to roll as we lose all 4 games to get knocked out of the playoffs.

Our WR's kept dropping balls, our offensive line couldn't block, our coaches were running the wrong plays, our defense was not keeping us in the game, our running game would dissapear and it was everything but the QB.

The horrible thing about an 8-8 team is it makes the coaches, front office and fans think they are only a few key pieces away. Instead of picking early in the draft you are picking in the middle making it even more difficult to improve. Each year some of your talent walks to greener pastures and each year your team does just enough to improve your team.

Each year your wins become less impressive, each year your losses go from close games to blow outs, each year there are different excuses. Yeah, AB had a bad game and threw 3 interceptions but last week he threw 4 TD's and over 300 yards. Our WR's dropped too many balls and he never had the chance, our offensive line wasn't blocking and that is why he was sacked 6 times, our running game never got going, we had tons of penalties and it put AB in bad situations and our defense couldn't even slow other teams down.

Each year we here about how this is going to be the break out year, the year that Aaron Brooks takes this football team by the horns and becomes a leader. Each year we would get all excited because Aaron Brooks would finally put it all together and lead this team.

Sound familiar?

It wasn't until the Saints signed a QB with half the talent of Brooks until we realized what the problem with those teams were. AB had a rocket for an arm, he could pull the ball down and run, he was elusive and had the ability to throw on the run. Brees has a below average arm, he is listed at 6' but somehow I tower over him and I am only 6', he has a gimpy shoulder, he can't run with the football, hell he may be one of the only QB's that can take a 3 step drop then throw the ball as far as he can and still underthrow the receiver.

I already know what your arguments are going to be because I used to be the one arguing against posts like this. Our Wr's have been dropping the ball, our offensive line can't block, our defense can't make a key stop, blah, blah, blah. Your WR's drop the ball because they play in the NFL it happens but guess what, we have 2 WR's that have dropped more passes than anyone on your team. Our offensive line has only given up 8 sacks in 8 games. What you don't realize is how many times players come flying in either unblocked or barely touched and Brees makes one step to avoid them and hits a WR for completion. It is amazing how good Brees makes our line look by simply stepping up in the pocket or sliding away from pressure. The guy is a freaking statue yet Mr. mobile AB would have been creamed. Brees has this awareness that you can not teach. Somehow the pocket can be collapsing on our slow short QB and he can just make these sudden moves and gets the ball out. In reality Aaron Brooks would have been sacked 25-30 times so far this year. Teams don't know what to do against him. Aaron Brooks was great until you blitzed him, that was his weakness. Teams learned this and sent 7-8 guys and he suddenly became a deer in the headlights. If you blitz Brees then he is going to torch you deep or with a dump off pass in the flat. If you don't blitz him he is going to make the proper read, throw a perfectly placed pass to the single coverage or take the 3-4 yard dump off in the flat.

Yeah, but none of this explains how it will make your defense better. Well have you guys watched an interview for both Drew Brees and Aaron Brooks? Drew Brees has this thing called character, he has leadership, he is humble, smart and comes off as a very caring and friendly person. Guys respond to him. They did in High School, they did at Purdue, they did it in San Diego and now they are doing it in New Orleans. He helps the defense off the field and on the sidelines. He oozes with confidence and he is always poised. He never talks about how good he is, he never throws teammates or coaches around the bus much less under them. Brooks was always trying to tell everyone how good he is, he would politely throw people under the bus but made it easy to see how he really felt. When he threw an interception he shrugged it off and jogged to the sidelines smiling. When someone screwed up he wouldn't say anything. He wouldn't tell them it is ok and he certainly wouldn't grab a guy by the face mask and tell him what he needs to be told.

I will never forget what Aaron Brooks did for this franchise yet at the same time it is hard to forgive him for all the years that we look back and say what if. Good luck the rest of the way and I am sure you guys will win a couple games you shouldn't just like you will win a couple you shouldn't. Have fun bashing me, I already know what your going to say because I used to be you.

Sincerely,
Saints fan

http://boards.atlantafalcons.com/index.php?showtopic=197450&hl=

Nice writeup bclemms. The pocket awareness part is what I have been noticing the most in the games of late. I had the same thoughts as you articulated when Brees would know exactly where the pressure was coming from, simply take a step in the proper direction at just the right moment, and deliver a nice pass. Even the hail mary this week, where the Falcons brought minimal pressure since they had a prevent D on, there was a perfect example of this. Drew had to wait on all the recievers to get downfield and in doing so was pressured. The thing is, it seems like his insticts in the pocket are so good, that we don't really even notice it. I've gotten to the point while watching him now that I'm not even really that worried when I see a blitzer coming at him because I know he sees it too.

If Vick could somehow ever develop this kind of innate ability to maneuver in the pocket while never taking his eyes from his recievers, making the proper read (not even ALL the time, just the majority), and delivering the ball accurately, then he would be the most dangerous player in the league. But until that happens, I still see him as a liablility that makes his team far too one dimensional to be successful.

 

[saintfan-n-alex]

if we drafted him maybe, just maybe and only if we had a offensive minded coach like payton as well as a veteran qb to coach him and to play the first year.

history shows that pocket passers win more games, we are seeing that this year with Brees.

 

[Colin311]

The receivers caught the ball when Schaub went in for Vick in 2005. No excuse!

 

[DavidM]

I'd take Vick anyday. Vick gives you the advantage that when a play breaks down he can still come up with a BIG play. You can't teach that. His WR's are killing him. What's amazing is that everyone knows that his WR's are horrible and they keep blaming Vick.

How many WRs have passed through the revolving door in Atlanta since Vick has been the QB? At what point does some of the blame rest with Vick as the passer?

And the other side of your argument is having a QB that can quickly size up the defense and get the ball out consistently before the play has a chance to break down. On those occasions when nothing is there, get rid of the ball and move on to the next play. Doing that well over the course of a game is worth infinitely more than a few long highlight reel runs by the QB.

As great as Peyton is one of the knacks against him is that he is not mobile. Once a play breaks down the only thing he can do is force a bad pass or throw the ball away.

And so far, that has worked out much better for Manning. A scheme can compensate for a QBs lack of athleticism much more easily than it can compensate for a QBs marginal ability to throw the ball. Peyton's ability to read defenses, make quick decisions, make smart accurate throws, and protect the ball far outweighs any negative with his mobility.

A better question would be if Colston, Henderson, Horn, Copper, and Miller were dropping balls like crazy would we blame them or Brees?

An even better question might be why does the Saints passing game this year not seem to lose a step when different players are called on to step up and yet the Falcons have had so many WRs come through and the results all tend to be the same?

Even though Brees threw some very good passes Sunday, he also threw some very poor ones that were still caught by our receivers. That catch by Horn was a classic and the one that Miller pulled off the turf was spectacular. Receivers have to help their QB.

It's give and take. Sometimes Brees is going to make the great throw, sometimes the receiver is going to make the great catch. It's a synergistic byproduct of being well-coached, focused, disciplined and talented.

 

[Nonreg]

go ahead and ban this guy plz.

 

[Farb]

This is what I posted on a Falcons board.

The agony of inconsistency

In 2000 the Saints overhauled the roster, Jim Haslett was the new coach, we had a new QB, a great offensive line, Ricky Williams and Deuce, Joe Horn was some WR from Kansas City that didn't play much until he got to New Orleans, Aaron Brooks was some guy we got from Green Bay and the one thing the Ditka era left was good offensive and defensive lines. Well the Saints made the most unlikely of runs beating the Rams in the first playoff victory in franchise history.

Instead of finishing what the new coaching staff and front office started in 2000 they decided that we had a young up in coming team and would stay put with what we have making minor changes. Over the next few years the Saints slowly let their great offensive line become average, decide we didn't need some of our defensive players because Aaron Brooks was the type of QB that could overcome a bad defense.

We started seasons strong, had a good running game in place and defense that a womans volleyball team could take advantage of. It was exciting football and Aaron Brooks could wow you with his play but sometimes he would make you scratch your head and turn your stomach inside out with disgust.

Then it happened. Three consecutive years of heart tearing .500 football. We would start the season on fire, we would think nobody could stop us, we would beat teams like the Tampa Super Bowl team twice and then we would lose to the Arizona Cardinals or the Raiders and justify it as a bad game. Sometimes we would bounce back, sometimes we would not. Sometimes after the bad performance it gave teams a blue print on how to beat Aaron Brooks and the Saints and we would drop 2-3 games we should have won before we realized how to beat this new gameplan we were facing. After AB would have two or three straight bad games he would come out on fire and have a game in which he throws 3 TD's that no other QB in the NFL could have thrown. He would scramble around see an receiver 30 yards downfield and make a throw that could be compared to a laser guided missle for a come from behind win. Sure was fun when we won but when we lost their was the finger pointing, the fighting on the team plane and in practice and a feeling of discomfort when looking at the team.

AB had a shoulder problem and the coaches let him play through it becuase all we had to do was win one of 4 games down the stretch to make the playoffs and all 4 teams were horrible. Jake Delhomme rode the bench questioning why he was there if he wasn't going to play when the starting QB was hurt, the team asked the same questions in the back of their heads and the fans scream for heads to roll as we lose all 4 games to get knocked out of the playoffs.

Our WR's kept dropping balls, our offensive line couldn't block, our coaches were running the wrong plays, our defense was not keeping us in the game, our running game would dissapear and it was everything but the QB.

The horrible thing about an 8-8 team is it makes the coaches, front office and fans think they are only a few key pieces away. Instead of picking early in the draft you are picking in the middle making it even more difficult to improve. Each year some of your talent walks to greener pastures and each year your team does just enough to improve your team.

Each year your wins become less impressive, each year your losses go from close games to blow outs, each year there are different excuses. Yeah, AB had a bad game and threw 3 interceptions but last week he threw 4 TD's and over 300 yards. Our WR's dropped too many balls and he never had the chance, our offensive line wasn't blocking and that is why he was sacked 6 times, our running game never got going, we had tons of penalties and it put AB in bad situations and our defense couldn't even slow other teams down.

Each year we here about how this is going to be the break out year, the year that Aaron Brooks takes this football team by the horns and becomes a leader. Each year we would get all excited because Aaron Brooks would finally put it all together and lead this team.

Sound familiar?

It wasn't until the Saints signed a QB with half the talent of Brooks until we realized what the problem with those teams were. AB had a rocket for an arm, he could pull the ball down and run, he was elusive and had the ability to throw on the run. Brees has a below average arm, he is listed at 6' but somehow I tower over him and I am only 6', he has a gimpy shoulder, he can't run with the football, hell he may be one of the only QB's that can take a 3 step drop then throw the ball as far as he can and still underthrow the receiver.

I already know what your arguments are going to be because I used to be the one arguing against posts like this. Our Wr's have been dropping the ball, our offensive line can't block, our defense can't make a key stop, blah, blah, blah. Your WR's drop the ball because they play in the NFL it happens but guess what, we have 2 WR's that have dropped more passes than anyone on your team. Our offensive line has only given up 8 sacks in 8 games. What you don't realize is how many times players come flying in either unblocked or barely touched and Brees makes one step to avoid them and hits a WR for completion. It is amazing how good Brees makes our line look by simply stepping up in the pocket or sliding away from pressure. The guy is a freaking statue yet Mr. mobile AB would have been creamed. Brees has this awareness that you can not teach. Somehow the pocket can be collapsing on our slow short QB and he can just make these sudden moves and gets the ball out. In reality Aaron Brooks would have been sacked 25-30 times so far this year. Teams don't know what to do against him. Aaron Brooks was great until you blitzed him, that was his weakness. Teams learned this and sent 7-8 guys and he suddenly became a deer in the headlights. If you blitz Brees then he is going to torch you deep or with a dump off pass in the flat. If you don't blitz him he is going to make the proper read, throw a perfectly placed pass to the single coverage or take the 3-4 yard dump off in the flat.

Yeah, but none of this explains how it will make your defense better. Well have you guys watched an interview for both Drew Brees and Aaron Brooks? Drew Brees has this thing called character, he has leadership, he is humble, smart and comes off as a very caring and friendly person. Guys respond to him. They did in High School, they did at Purdue, they did it in San Diego and now they are doing it in New Orleans. He helps the defense off the field and on the sidelines. He oozes with confidence and he is always poised. He never talks about how good he is, he never throws teammates or coaches around the bus much less under them. Brooks was always trying to tell everyone how good he is, he would politely throw people under the bus but made it easy to see how he really felt. When he threw an interception he shrugged it off and jogged to the sidelines smiling. When someone screwed up he wouldn't say anything. He wouldn't tell them it is ok and he certainly wouldn't grab a guy by the face mask and tell him what he needs to be told.

I will never forget what Aaron Brooks did for this franchise yet at the same time it is hard to forgive him for all the years that we look back and say what if. Good luck the rest of the way and I am sure you guys will win a couple games you shouldn't just like you will win a couple you shouldn't. Have fun bashing me, I already know what your going to say because I used to be you.

Sincerely,
Saints fan

http://boards.atlantafalcons.com/index.php?showtopic=197450&hl=

Damn, that is long.

 

[keepoursaints]

i can't agree with this..... fetch monster is a BEAST!!!!!

That brings up a very interesting argument because we all witnessed the effect that the Turf Monster had on Vick.. but Vick only has 2 legs so I bet the fetch monster would be 2times as slow

 

[keepoursaints]

This is what I posted on a Falcons board.

The agony of inconsistency

In 2000 the Saints overhauled the roster, Jim Haslett was the new coach, we had a new QB, a great offensive line, Ricky Williams and Deuce, Joe Horn was some WR from Kansas City that didn't play much until he got to New Orleans, Aaron Brooks was some guy we got from Green Bay and the one thing the Ditka era left was good offensive and defensive lines. Well the Saints made the most unlikely of runs beating the Rams in the first playoff victory in franchise history.

Instead of finishing what the new coaching staff and front office started in 2000 they decided that we had a young up in coming team and would stay put with what we have making minor changes. Over the next few years the Saints slowly let their great offensive line become average, decide we didn't need some of our defensive players because Aaron Brooks was the type of QB that could overcome a bad defense.

We started seasons strong, had a good running game in place and defense that a womans volleyball team could take advantage of. It was exciting football and Aaron Brooks could wow you with his play but sometimes he would make you scratch your head and turn your stomach inside out with disgust.

Then it happened. Three consecutive years of heart tearing .500 football. We would start the season on fire, we would think nobody could stop us, we would beat teams like the Tampa Super Bowl team twice and then we would lose to the Arizona Cardinals or the Raiders and justify it as a bad game. Sometimes we would bounce back, sometimes we would not. Sometimes after the bad performance it gave teams a blue print on how to beat Aaron Brooks and the Saints and we would drop 2-3 games we should have won before we realized how to beat this new gameplan we were facing. After AB would have two or three straight bad games he would come out on fire and have a game in which he throws 3 TD's that no other QB in the NFL could have thrown. He would scramble around see an receiver 30 yards downfield and make a throw that could be compared to a laser guided missle for a come from behind win. Sure was fun when we won but when we lost their was the finger pointing, the fighting on the team plane and in practice and a feeling of discomfort when looking at the team.

AB had a shoulder problem and the coaches let him play through it becuase all we had to do was win one of 4 games down the stretch to make the playoffs and all 4 teams were horrible. Jake Delhomme rode the bench questioning why he was there if he wasn't going to play when the starting QB was hurt, the team asked the same questions in the back of their heads and the fans scream for heads to roll as we lose all 4 games to get knocked out of the playoffs.

Our WR's kept dropping balls, our offensive line couldn't block, our coaches were running the wrong plays, our defense was not keeping us in the game, our running game would dissapear and it was everything but the QB.

The horrible thing about an 8-8 team is it makes the coaches, front office and fans think they are only a few key pieces away. Instead of picking early in the draft you are picking in the middle making it even more difficult to improve. Each year some of your talent walks to greener pastures and each year your team does just enough to improve your team.

Each year your wins become less impressive, each year your losses go from close games to blow outs, each year there are different excuses. Yeah, AB had a bad game and threw 3 interceptions but last week he threw 4 TD's and over 300 yards. Our WR's dropped too many balls and he never had the chance, our offensive line wasn't blocking and that is why he was sacked 6 times, our running game never got going, we had tons of penalties and it put AB in bad situations and our defense couldn't even slow other teams down.

Each year we here about how this is going to be the break out year, the year that Aaron Brooks takes this football team by the horns and becomes a leader. Each year we would get all excited because Aaron Brooks would finally put it all together and lead this team.

Sound familiar?

It wasn't until the Saints signed a QB with half the talent of Brooks until we realized what the problem with those teams were. AB had a rocket for an arm, he could pull the ball down and run, he was elusive and had the ability to throw on the run. Brees has a below average arm, he is listed at 6' but somehow I tower over him and I am only 6', he has a gimpy shoulder, he can't run with the football, hell he may be one of the only QB's that can take a 3 step drop then throw the ball as far as he can and still underthrow the receiver.

I already know what your arguments are going to be because I used to be the one arguing against posts like this. Our Wr's have been dropping the ball, our offensive line can't block, our defense can't make a key stop, blah, blah, blah. Your WR's drop the ball because they play in the NFL it happens but guess what, we have 2 WR's that have dropped more passes than anyone on your team. Our offensive line has only given up 8 sacks in 8 games. What you don't realize is how many times players come flying in either unblocked or barely touched and Brees makes one step to avoid them and hits a WR for completion. It is amazing how good Brees makes our line look by simply stepping up in the pocket or sliding away from pressure. The guy is a freaking statue yet Mr. mobile AB would have been creamed. Brees has this awareness that you can not teach. Somehow the pocket can be collapsing on our slow short QB and he can just make these sudden moves and gets the ball out. In reality Aaron Brooks would have been sacked 25-30 times so far this year. Teams don't know what to do against him. Aaron Brooks was great until you blitzed him, that was his weakness. Teams learned this and sent 7-8 guys and he suddenly became a deer in the headlights. If you blitz Brees then he is going to torch you deep or with a dump off pass in the flat. If you don't blitz him he is going to make the proper read, throw a perfectly placed pass to the single coverage or take the 3-4 yard dump off in the flat.

Yeah, but none of this explains how it will make your defense better. Well have you guys watched an interview for both Drew Brees and Aaron Brooks? Drew Brees has this thing called character, he has leadership, he is humble, smart and comes off as a very caring and friendly person. Guys respond to him. They did in High School, they did at Purdue, they did it in San Diego and now they are doing it in New Orleans. He helps the defense off the field and on the sidelines. He oozes with confidence and he is always poised. He never talks about how good he is, he never throws teammates or coaches around the bus much less under them. Brooks was always trying to tell everyone how good he is, he would politely throw people under the bus but made it easy to see how he really felt. When he threw an interception he shrugged it off and jogged to the sidelines smiling. When someone screwed up he wouldn't say anything. He wouldn't tell them it is ok and he certainly wouldn't grab a guy by the face mask and tell him what he needs to be told.

I will never forget what Aaron Brooks did for this franchise yet at the same time it is hard to forgive him for all the years that we look back and say what if. Good luck the rest of the way and I am sure you guys will win a couple games you shouldn't just like you will win a couple you shouldn't. Have fun bashing me, I already know what your going to say because I used to be you.

Sincerely,
Saints fan

http://boards.atlantafalcons.com/index.php?showtopic=197450&hl=

That was one of the best posts evar bro... I'm glad I took the time to read it.

 

[jlam]

Even though Brees threw some very good passes Sunday, he also threw some very poor ones that were still caught by our receivers. That catch by Horn was a classic and the one that Miller pulled off the turf was spectacular. Receivers have to help their QB.

It's give and take. Sometimes Brees is going to make the great throw, sometimes the receiver is going to make the great catch. It's a synergistic byproduct of being well-coached, focused, disciplined and talented.

Not to mention that the throw Brees made on that incredible catch was anything but a terrible throw. A little bit higher than he wanted it to be, maybe. But Brees put that ball in a postion where only his guy had a chance to make the play. This is another advantage of having a smart, instinctive QB. The throw may not always hit the guy right in the numbers, but you may not necessarily want it to if you want to keep the defense from making a play on the football.

The way I see it, it all comes back to something a real leader does well, and that's to consistently put those around you in a position to succeed. Something #9 has done well so far for us and something Vick has yet to prove.

 

[Wingdog]

I love watching Vick take stupid sacks for -15 yards. NO THANKS!

 

[Paul]

No, I would not take M. Vick as my QB.
OK, I like to look at his highlight reels, I'll admit that, but where has that really gotten that team? They went to the NFC Championship Game during a year where the NFC was full of mediocrity, which has been the case for at least 5 years now.
Dude fumbles like crazy, darts with the ball at the first sign of trouble, has terrible "crazy legs" in the pocket, and can be very inaccurate at times. He's on the same path as A. Brooks, with all this talent, but no one taking the time to mold him into a complete QB. Moreover, he's been given too much power and exemption from Count Dracula, oops, I meant Arthur Blank, and it's like "why work to make myself a better QB. I have everything I want here."
Finally, his coaching staff in Atlanta is a joke (credit LSSPam with this sentiment).

 

[shrike3000]

I do not want Mike Vick. My heart can't handle the ups and downs.