If there ever was a "Get Right" Game for our Offensive Woes... (1 Viewer)

stevo3

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It's this one.

What are our offensive woes you ask?

1. Lack of production from pass catchers not named Thomas or Kamara
2. Poor pass protection for Drew.

What do we have on the schedule this Sunday? A team that ranks at the top of the league in stopping the run and at the bottom of the league at defending the Pass. Oh and they just released they're best CB. They are also bottom of the league

It's time for CSP to get back into the lab and come up with creative ways to get other guys involved. Bubble screens to Harris. Cook up the Seam. Rub routes intended to get Smith open instead of Thomas. Both Kamara and Murray in the backfield and run screens to Murray with Kamara in to block. Bubble screens and quick slants to T. Hill. Dink and Dunk all the way down the field and let the chunk yardage come. Then when they are gassed and out of position, then hit the long plays.

I think one of the biggest reasons Drew throws to Thomas and Kamara so much is trust and chemistry. Ginn did nothing to help that on Sun and neither did Smith with that drop. I know it was high, but you gotta find a way to make that catch. The catch he made when he got killed made up for it. But it's time to come up with gameplans that feature other players. We can always switch to heavy doses of CGM and Kamara if needed, but this would def put the defense on their heels. It would also make future prep for our Offense that much harder.

You know if we get into the SB and have to face the Pats, Belichek is the master at game planning to take away your strengths. There is no way he would let CGM and Kamara beat them. And they have the secondary to make life difficult for both.

I know everyone wants to get the running game going, but this is not that game. They are the best Def in the NFL at stopping the run. And one of the worst at stopping the pass. Let's use that to get creative and focus on getting other people the ball, sorta like we did against the Skins last year when Drew broke the Passing Yds record.
 
It also should have been Atlanta.

I’m struggling to understand what our identity is. I think it *was* ball control, tough defense and avoiding mistakes before Drew came back.

I don’t blame Payton at all for wanting to open it up. But I do wonder if that makes it a bit tougher for OL guys to get pumped up when they know they’re going to pass block a lot more.

It was also clear we were expecting a lot more passing from Atlanta and got sloppy vs. the run. Payton said as much yesterday about our failures to set the edge, etc.

So, to your point: it makes a ton of sense that this would be our get right game. It also would make a ton of sense to rely on the passing game to pile up yards and points. But I’m not sure that’s who we are or, should I say, who we should be. Whether it’s with Drew or Teddy, we may be best served to try to pound it and play ball control, regardless of Tampa’s relative strengths.
 
Feels like we've heard this somewhere before. Atlanta one of the worst pass rushing teams, and a bottom of the barrel pass Defense coming to the Dome without one of their Starting Corners. Should be a recipe to put up a ton of points?

I'll believe it when I see it, I still don't think it's a good idea to try and get into a Passing Shoot out with Mike Evans/Godwin/OJ Howard (who had a bounce back game last week)
I think there has to be some attempt at maintaining balance with a ground game.. I feel like another week of 45 pass attempts will be another Loss, especially if Clapp has to start on OL.
 
Curtis Johnson has been, in my mind, one of (if not the) most consistently great WR coaches there are in the NFL. The hallmark of some of the great teams he's been a part of (2006-2011 Saints, 2016 Bears, 2017-2018 Saints) is that even pedestrian receivers appear sure handed and reliable.

For whatever reason, Tedd Ginn and Tre Smith have regressed, and Carr is invisible/non existent.

I don't know why this is, but it needs to be looked into and accountability needs to be had.
 
Ok. One bad game. Understand the frustration of losing. But the thread makes it look like we have been struggling for a long time. Apparently it wasn't a problem against Arizona or Chicago. All the great offensive teams past, present, and future will have their bad games.
 
I'm rinsing my mind of that game last Sunday. It's gone. Those do happen every now and then, and it's not the end of the world. Not to say that the team's performance shouldn't warrant complaints or criticism. It very well does. However, I think it was just one of those games that the Saints have each year. The week before, I didn't see any complaints because even though we were lacking "weapons" at receiver, Brees fed everyone and they all contributed. This past game, it just wasn't clicking, for anyone but a few. I'm confident they'll get it worked out.

I think we can all agree that receiver is probably one of, if not the weakest position groups on the team. I just think it's a sacrifice that had to be made to improve our bottom-of-the league defense of years and years. That's usually the way it works. We still have an elite QB with an elite receiver. Cook could still turn into what we hoped. Remember, he hasn't had that long to develop chemistry with Brees, and veteran or not, that's important. Ginn had an off day, but I have been highly impressed with what Ginn has had to offer since becoming a Saint. TQ is still an unknown, but he looks to be progressing.

So, not that I disagree with your points, but I think a lot of what we saw in the last game just came down to poor preperation and lack of focus. If it happens again, I'll be concerned. Not necessarily if we lose a nail-biter, but if we get man-handled again. I hope we win out, but I think we'll drop another few, and after every one we lose it will bring out discussions on how lacking we are, when other teams are just as lacking at certain positions, but still manage to be great. Just part of the game. We'll be fine.
 
Curtis Johnson has been, in my mind, one of (if not the) most consistently great WR coaches there are in the NFL. The hallmark of some of the great teams he's been a part of (2006-2011 Saints, 2016 Bears, 2017-2018 Saints) is that even pedestrian receivers appear sure handed and reliable.

For whatever reason, Tedd Ginn and Tre Smith have regressed, and Carr is invisible/non existent.

I don't know why this is, but it needs to be looked into and accountability needs to be had.
Well Ginn is 34, eventually he's going to hit a decline and the Saints got a few solid, productive years out of him. With receivers at a certain age you just don't have the hand strength anymore.. saw this with Colston in his later years as he slowly started to have more drops, and fumbles creep up on him. I don't blame Ginn, his ideal role should be a 3rd or 4th option on this team and not the 2nd most productive Wideout on the roster.

Tre'Quan is essentially finishing his Rookie season because of injuries, Wide Receiver is one of the toughest positions to learn at the Pro Level; and especially in a Brees/Payton Offense with so much verbage, and terminology to grasp and adjustments to make pre and post-snap. I don't think he will become a dependable week to week guy until Year 3.

Austin Carr is a 6 foot, Undrafted receiver from Northwestern who runs a 4.62 Forty; the measurables aren't there for anything but a 5th/6th roster type guy.


I don't see how you can blame Curtis Johnson he needs better talent to work with, this is a Front Office, Scouting, Payton input issue. Outside of hitting on Mike Thomas they have not brought in quality, available Receivers for CJ to work with going back to Nick Toon, Brandon Coleman, they missed hard on Cameron Meredith in free agency, and the moves for Simmie Cobbs, Rishard Matthews, Grayson, and Humphrey didn't pan out either. Sometimes Undrafted guys just don't cut it... Sometimes you find Lance Moore, or Pierre Thomas but sometimes you get Austin Carr, and Tommy Lee-Lewis.
 
Well Ginn is 34, eventually he's going to hit a decline and the Saints got a few solid, productive years out of him. With receivers at a certain age you just don't have the hand strength anymore.. saw this with Colston in his later years as he slowly started to have more drops, and fumbles creep up on him. I don't blame Ginn, his ideal role should be a 3rd or 4th option on this team and not the 2nd most productive Wideout on the roster.

Tre'Quan is essentially finishing his Rookie season because of injuries, Wide Receiver is one of the toughest positions to learn at the Pro Level; and especially in a Brees/Payton Offense with so much verbage, and terminology to grasp and adjustments to make pre and post-snap. I don't think he will become a dependable week to week guy until Year 3.

Austin Carr is a 6 foot, Undrafted receiver from Northwestern who runs a 4.62 Forty; the measurables aren't there for anything but a 5th/6th roster type guy.


I don't see how you can blame Curtis Johnson he needs better talent to work with, this is a Front Office, Scouting, Payton input issue. Outside of hitting on Mike Thomas they have not brought in quality, available Receivers for CJ to work with going back to Nick Toon, Brandon Coleman, they missed hard on Cameron Meredith in free agency, and the moves for Simmie Cobbs, Rishard Matthews, Grayson, and Humphrey didn't pan out either. Sometimes Undrafted guys just don't cut it, sometimes you find Lance Moore, or Pierre Thomas but sometimes you get Austin Carr, and Tommy Lee-Lewis.
Im not blaming him. I'm saying I don't know what the problem is, and that what I'm seeing is very uncharacteristic of WR corps that he's responsible for.
 
Ok. One bad game. Understand the frustration of losing. But the thread makes it look like we have been struggling for a long time. Apparently it wasn't a problem against Arizona or Chicago. All the great offensive teams past, present, and future will have their bad games.

I think the question is more about who we should be.

During the process of just trying to get through five games without Drew, I think we stumbled onto an identity. Whether it’s Teddy or Drew, the team responded really well to ball control and putting the game on the shoulders of the defense. Latavius Murray shredded a supposed monster of a defense in Chicago. With no Kamara, we were a bit more balanced against Arizona compared to the Atlanta game.

Especially with Lattimore out, we need to get back to ball control on offense to limit the opportunities for Tampa.
 
Im not blaming him. I'm saying I don't know what the problem is, and that what I'm seeing is very uncharacteristic of WR corps that he's responsible for.
The problem is poor scouting, player evaluation for that position group.

We had an NFL.com article praising Dennis Allen, and Ireland for their part in the building of the Defense with acquiring Rankins, Bell, Lattimore, Apple, DeMario Davis, Davenport.

So on the flip side as a consequence of investing that many Resources into your Defense you have a lack of Capital invested in the Receiver position, so it makes the misses that much more glaring. Whether through Free Agency / or the Draft. Payton needs to share some blame on this because he's the Offensive Guru.

I also understand that there's a string of bad luck involved as well. Brandin Cooks forcing his way out complaining about his lack of targets during a win, Stills becoming a locker room issue, Snead becoming unreliable with off the field issues, needing a change of scenery. That's out of anyone on the staff's control.
 
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I think the question is more about who we should be.

During the process of just trying to get through five games without Drew, I think we stumbled onto an identity. Whether it’s Teddy or Drew, the team responded really well to ball control and putting the game on the shoulders of the defense. Latavius Murray shredded a supposed monster of a defense in Chicago. With no Kamara, we were a bit more balanced against Arizona compared to the Atlanta game.

Especially with Lattimore out, we need to get back to ball control on offense to limit the opportunities for Tampa.
I agree with this. I didn't like the game plan the coach put out. It never hurt to establish a running game and game plan like we did when Teddy was in there. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. I think they underestimated the Falcon just because of their record. And they got too over confident just because of what happened against Arizona and getting key players back.
 
Curtis Johnson has been, in my mind, one of (if not the) most consistently great WR coaches there are in the NFL. The hallmark of some of the great teams he's been a part of (2006-2011 Saints, 2016 Bears, 2017-2018 Saints) is that even pedestrian receivers appear sure handed and reliable.

For whatever reason, Tedd Ginn and Tre Smith have regressed, and Carr is invisible/non existent.

I don't know why this is, but it needs to be looked into and accountability needs to be had.

There has to be at least some talent for any coach to work with. The reality is Ginn is really old, and Smith and Kirkwood are not only injury prone, but when they are on the field they struggle mightily to run good routes which are critical in an offense where the QB likes to throw before the WR even breaks.

I wonder if there has been so much focus on turning the defense around that the offensive positions just aren't getting the same attention they used to by scouts. Missing on an offensive skill player here and there is expected, but they've been whiffing at an alarming rate. They've never come close to replacing Graham at Tight End, and while they got an incredible #1 Wide Receiver with Michael Thomas, there is no Cooks, Stills, or Snead replacement. They got an incredible steal with Alvin Kamara, but at the same time he's not a bruiser that can run between the tackles 20 times a game. Latavius Murray has fit in well... But they don't feed him consistently and he is absolutely the definition of a volume carry back. He's not going to be Ingram who gets you 70 yards on 14 carries. Murray needs volume, his career game log stats show the more carries he gets, the stronger he runs.
 

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