Immigrants are taking up spots on Forbes 400 (1 Viewer)

[El Caliente]

If I had time to double check, I'd lean towards 100%

I don't understand.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

this needed to be here

 

[DaveXA]

What's your basis for how common this is?

The better terminology for all of this is documented versus undocumented. But it is my understanding that there is no process for undocumented alien residents to become citizens without first getting documented - your time begins counting upon obtaining the visa (green card). While it is possible for undocumented aliens to get a green card, those rules apply to special categories of aliens (such as some classes of children and those seeking political asylum). I don't think it is common at all for most undocumented aliens to just got and get their green card and eventually become citizens.

I'm curious as to the answer to this as well. I have a lot of anecdotal experience over the years, but I'm not sure my experience is typical. For example, I have a friend from Brazil who, as I understand it, is an undocumented immigrant. Her parents moved here when she was very young, I'd say 5-6 years old. They stayed in the States for many years. Never went back to Brazil herself. Ultimately she graduated from college and lives a pretty normal live here, except for the fact that she's an undocumented immigrant. She said her parents lost her documents and she has nothing to show as proof she can stay here. She's always been afraid to go to INS because she's worried she'll get sent back.

It seems to me that since she's lived 30 of her 35 years of life, and that this country is all she knows, that she should be able to stay hear, but because of lack of documentation, she's stuck in limbo. I think she's married now, so she may have since sorted it out for herself, but it's not an isolated incident.

Undocumented immigrants becoming naturalized citizens as far as I know is pretty rare. I'm not familiar with any cases actually happening outside of the narrow exceptions cited by Chuck.

The distinction between undocumented/documented is more significant that legal/illegal. It's certainly not all cut and dried, but there is a clear legal process to become a naturalized citizen. I know and have learned a bit of it as my wife is naturalized and I have many friends who have been through the immigrations process. It's actually a quite complicated subject.

 

[V Chip]

Considering that everyone on the list are LEGAL immigrants...in context to this story, I would say there is a pretty substantial difference. Even Trump isn't against legal immigration.

Well, unless you're a Muslim.

 

[rajncajn]

I'm curious as to the answer to this as well. I have a lot of anecdotal experience over the years, but I'm not sure my experience is typical. For example, I have a friend from Brazil who, as I understand it, is an undocumented immigrant. Her parents moved here when she was very young, I'd say 5-6 years old. They stayed in the States for many years. Never went back to Brazil herself. Ultimately she graduated from college and lives a pretty normal live here, except for the fact that she's an undocumented immigrant. She said her parents lost her documents and she has nothing to show as proof she can stay here. She's always been afraid to go to INS because she's worried she'll get sent back.

It seems to me that since she's lived 30 of her 35 years of life, and that this country is all she knows, that she should be able to stay hear, but because of lack of documentation, she's stuck in limbo. I think she's married now, so she may have since sorted it out for herself, but it's not an isolated incident.

Undocumented immigrants becoming naturalized citizens as far as I know is pretty rare. I'm not familiar with any cases actually happening outside of the narrow exceptions cited by Chuck.

The distinction between undocumented/documented is more significant that legal/illegal. It's certainly not all cut and dried, but there is a clear legal process to become a naturalized citizen. I know and have learned a bit of it as my wife is naturalized and I have many friends who have been through the immigrations process. It's actually a quite complicated subject.

Gonna play devil's advocate here and ask a few questions using your friend as my example:

1. Since her parents were undocumented immigrants, how did they earn a living?
2. While here did they pay any sort of state or federal income tax?
3. How did her family handle medical costs?
4. Did your friend attend public schools in order to get her education?
5. Since your friend is still undocumented does she pay any sort of state or federal income tax now?
6. Are her parents also still in the US as undocumented immigrants?

Most people are perfectly fine with immigrants coming to the US. They simply don't want to have to "foot the bill" for people who come here and take advantage of our public systems yet never pay anything into it and have no intention of ever doing so.

 

[El Caliente]

Gonna play devil's advocate here and ask a few questions using your friend as my example:

1. Since her parents were undocumented immigrants, how did they earn a living?
2. While here did they pay any sort of state or federal income tax?
3. How did her family handle medical costs?
4. Did your friend attend public schools in order to get her education?
5. Since your friend is still undocumented does she pay any sort of state or federal income tax now?
6. Are her parents also still in the US as undocumented immigrants?

Most people are perfectly fine with immigrants coming to the US. They simply don't want to have to "foot the bill" for people who come here and take advantage of our public systems yet never pay anything into it and have no intention of ever doing so.

I don't know his friend, but I know the answer to most of your questions,
1. Since her parents were undocumented immigrants, how did they earn a living? Probably doing jobs that you or I wouldn't want to do.
https://www.quora.com/How-do-illega...he-US-without-any-right-to-work-documentation
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...da9f2a-d3bc-11e4-a62f-ee745911a4ff_story.html
2. While here did they pay any sort of state or federal income tax? If they bought food or gas, yes they paid taxes.

It may come as a surprise to some that just like almost everyone else, undocumented immigrants pay taxes. They pay property taxes and sales taxes, and many also pay taxes on their incomes. In fact, on average, they pay a higher share of their incomes in state and local taxes than taxpayers in the top 1%.
Undocumented immigrants pay up on Tax Day: Column

3. How did her family handle medical costs? The probably received limited health care, or just went without.
Undocumented Immigrants Face Limited Health Care Options | Huffington Post
4. Did your friend attend public schools in order to get her education? Unless her parent were wealthy, she probably did. And thats ok. Immigrant Student
Furthermore, the school systems are lucky to have them
Study: First generation immigrant children do better in school than US-born kids
5. Since your friend is still undocumented does she pay any sort of state or federal income tax now? See answer to question 1.
6. Are her parents also still in the US as undocumented immigrants? After being in this country long enough, unless they are incarcerated, is that really a concern?

I thought that this survey done by Pew Research was pretty interesting as well
5 facts about illegal immigration in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

In the end, immigrants are footing their own bill, and the American populace should be more upset at their elected officials about writing crap policy which in some ways drives immigrants to the US (NAFTA hurt Mexico as much as it did the US Under Nafta, Mexico Suffered, and the United States Felt Its Pain - NYTimes.com).

 

[El Caliente]

Well, unless you're a Muslim.

Yeah, I just saw that comment, and glad you responded. I'm waiting for Trump to say "Nobody appreciates immigrants more than I do." That guy wants to see fewer Muslims enter the US, and think those entering from Mexico (as if all immigrants from South of the boarder are Mexican and not from Venezuela, Panama, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc.) he said:

"They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists," Trump said of undocumented Mexican immigrants while announcing his candidacy last June.

Yup, thats a dude who loves him some immigrants.

 

[rajncajn]

I don't know his friend, but I know the answer to most of your questions,

1. Since her parents were undocumented immigrants, how did they earn a living? Probably doing jobs that you or I wouldn't want to do.
You or I wouldn't want to do them, but considering we still have a very large number of citizens that are unemployed in the country (that taxpayers are helping) it doesn't make sense to just blow off illegal immigrants taking jobs.

2. While here did they pay any sort of state or federal income tax? If they bought food or gas, yes they paid taxes. That's not income tax, that's sales tax and some states do not have it at all or it is very minimal.

3. How did her family handle medical costs? The probably received limited health care, or just went without.
The link you provided discusses mostly what health coverage they can attain. Illegal immigrants are not barred from public healthcare facilities, nor can they be turned away from any other healthcare facility. Who then pays for their medical expenses?

4. Did your friend attend public schools in order to get her education? Unless her parent were wealthy, she probably did. And thats ok.
I agree, if they're here, they should be allowed to attend public schools. But who pays for that?

5. Since your friend is still undocumented does she pay any sort of state or federal income tax now? See answer to question 1. Again, that is sales tax, not income tax

6. Are her parents also still in the US as undocumented immigrants? After being in this country long enough, unless they are incarcerated, is that really a concern?
30 years, the three of them have been living in the country and have never paid a penny in income tax. That's just three of an estimated 11 million in the country right now. How much of a drain do you estimate that is on taxpayers? If these folks have paying jobs then why shouldn't they be made to pay income taxes like the rest of us?

Most rational people don't want to send them all back, at least not the one's who are being productive, good people. They just don't want to have people skirting the system and benefitting from what we are paying for yet never having any intention of paying anything into it themselves.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

What's your basis for how common this is?

The better terminology for all of this is documented versus undocumented. But it is my understanding that there is no process for undocumented alien residents to become citizens without first getting documented - your time begins counting upon obtaining the visa (green card). While it is possible for undocumented aliens to get a green card, those rules apply to special categories of aliens (such as some classes of children and those seeking political asylum). I don't think it is common at all for most undocumented aliens to just got and get their green card and eventually become citizens.

First, it depends on how you define undocumented.

I'm calling anyone who isn't lawfully present in the US as undocumented.

Technically someone who comes on a visa and overstays that visa is "illegal" just like someone who crosses the border without inspection.

If you are the spouse, child or parent of an adult US citizen, and you overstayed your visa and never left the US, you can get a green card without any penalty for overstaying your visa. You could have come here 10 years ago on a visitor visa and even though you were supposed to have left 9 years and 6 months ago, you can become "legal" with no penalty.

If you came across the border without any documentation, it's a bit more complicated, but you can still become "legal" without too much trouble, as long as you have a familial relationship with an adult US citizen. Since you never entered the country legally, you would have to leave the country before becoming "legal", but the current system is set up so you'd only have to be outside the country for a couple of days. Since you'd have to leave the country, you'd have to get a waiver for the bars caused by the unlawful presence, but all the paperwork is filed ahead of time and you'd know if everything was approved before you left the country. So if you came illegally, you'd have to spend a couple of days max outside the US, but you can still become legal.

A very large number (possibly half) of legal immigrants fall into one of the two groups I describe above. These two groups of people might be "illegal" today, but can become "legal" with a little bit of paperwork. it might take 1 - 2 years to process the paperwork for those who entered illegally, but for those who just overstayed their visa, it's usually less than a 6 month process.

In both cases the individual would be eligible to be a US citizen 5 years (3 for USCs' spouses) after getting their green card.


My point is that we attach to much to the "legal" or "illegal" labels. Much of the time, the individual people have been in both groups during their lives.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

I'm curious as to the answer to this as well. I have a lot of anecdotal experience over the years, but I'm not sure my experience is typical. For example, I have a friend from Brazil who, as I understand it, is an undocumented immigrant. Her parents moved here when she was very young, I'd say 5-6 years old. They stayed in the States for many years. Never went back to Brazil herself. Ultimately she graduated from college and lives a pretty normal live here, except for the fact that she's an undocumented immigrant. She said her parents lost her documents and she has nothing to show as proof she can stay here. She's always been afraid to go to INS because she's worried she'll get sent back.

It seems to me that since she's lived 30 of her 35 years of life, and that this country is all she knows, that she should be able to stay hear, but because of lack of documentation, she's stuck in limbo. I think she's married now, so she may have since sorted it out for herself, but it's not an isolated incident.

Undocumented immigrants becoming naturalized citizens as far as I know is pretty rare. I'm not familiar with any cases actually happening outside of the narrow exceptions cited by Chuck.

The distinction between undocumented/documented is more significant that legal/illegal. It's certainly not all cut and dried, but there is a clear legal process to become a naturalized citizen. I know and have learned a bit of it as my wife is naturalized and I have many friends who have been through the immigrations process. It's actually a quite complicated subject.

It sounds like your friend entered legally, but overstayed her visa.

If your friend is married to a US citizen, or when she has US citizen children over 21, she can get a green card within six months.

It also sounds like she should be eligible for DACA even if she's not married and has no children. Which would give her the legal right to work in the US.

 

[superchuck500]

Frequently Requested Statistics on Immigrants and Immigration in the United States | migrationpolicy.org

It appears Samiam has a point. I think you're voicing a false narrative.

A lot of good statistics in that link, btw.

First, it depends on how you define undocumented.

I'm calling anyone who isn't lawfully present in the US as undocumented.

Technically someone who comes on a visa and overstays that visa is "illegal" just like someone who crosses the border without inspection.

If you are the spouse, child or parent of an adult US citizen, and you overstayed your visa and never left the US, you can get a green card without any penalty for overstaying your visa. You could have come here 10 years ago on a visitor visa and even though you were supposed to have left 9 years and 6 months ago, you can become "legal" with no penalty.

If you came across the border without any documentation, it's a bit more complicated, but you can still become "legal" without too much trouble, as long as you have a familial relationship with an adult US citizen. Since you never entered the country legally, you would have to leave the country before becoming "legal", but the current system is set up so you'd only have to be outside the country for a couple of days. Since you'd have to leave the country, you'd have to get a waiver for the bars caused by the unlawful presence, but all the paperwork is filed ahead of time and you'd know if everything was approved before you left the country. So if you came illegally, you'd have to spend a couple of days max outside the US, but you can still become legal.

A very large number (possibly half) of legal immigrants fall into one of the two groups I describe above. These two groups of people might be "illegal" today, but can become "legal" with a little bit of paperwork. it might take 1 - 2 years to process the paperwork for those who entered illegally, but for those who just overstayed their visa, it's usually less than a 6 month process.

In both cases the individual would be eligible to be a US citizen 5 years (3 for USCs' spouses) after getting their green card.


My point is that we attach to much to the "legal" or "illegal" labels. Much of the time, the individual people have been in both groups during their lives.

I agree with you on the parlance - you're either documented or you're not but it isn't necessarily determined by how you got into the US. According to coldseat's data, there's around a million new green cards (legal permanent residents or LPRs) issued every year - and that includes very significant numbers (in the hundreds of thousands) of green cards issued to undocumented aliens already in the US . . . so that supports the proposition that "illegal immigrants become legal immigrants all the time." That appears to be quite true.

But this led me to the question of why the pathway to citizenship is so controversial. Why did the president have to try to get it done through and executive order after waiting several years on a failed effort in Congress, only to have the EO overturned as beyond the scope of exclusive executive authority? Why do so many on the right of immigration policy consider the pathway to be such a horrible idea?

We already have a pathway. If you get your green card and then remain in the US for five years, and pass the test, you get your citizenship. I suppose the data also reveal the problem, though. And that is that with approximately 1.3M or so immigrants coming into the US every year, the 1M LPRs issued every year isn't enough to start cutting down the number of undocumented aliens that want to remain and become citizens.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

1. Since her parents were undocumented immigrants, how did they earn a living? Probably doing jobs that you or I wouldn't want to do.
You or I wouldn't want to do them, but considering we still have a very large number of citizens that are unemployed in the country (that taxpayers are helping) it doesn't make sense to just blow off illegal immigrants taking jobs.

what is the likelihood that these jobs pay minimal wage?
taxpayers are already subsidizing Wal-mart (and the like) wages
it's a murky murky area, but if citizens had these jobs costs would increase anyway - we're going to pay for it one way or another

4. Did your friend attend public schools in order to get her education? Unless her parent were wealthy, she probably did. And thats ok.
I agree, if they're here, they should be allowed to attend public schools. But who pays for that?

over the long run it's WAY more expensive NOT to educate someone that to educate them

 

[Goatman Saint]

Also having spent 20 years working in that environment, I can tell you for certainty the kids of those illegal immigrants are some of the best ones you can get. No behavior problems, work exceptionally hard, very polite and considerate because their parents are here to work and give them a better life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[El Caliente]

The illegal pays taxes just like you or I do. Obviously they don't pay much by way of State or Federal taxes, unless their employer hires them and doesn't pay them under the table. But yes, those illegals pay taxes
What Everybody Ought to Know About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes : Immigration Impact

And if they are only paying sales taxes, well here is how that pays their way in the community How State Sales Taxes Work | HowStuffWorks

In short, the OP and other posters are pointing out, immigrants are coming to this country, and they are coming with a strong work ethic. Rather than bogging them down and curbing their growth, we should be encouraging them and their ideas, and helping them become the next member of the Forbes 500, John Lennon & Yoko, Arnold Schwartzenager, or even the next Michael J Fox (yes, even Canadian's have come here illegally).

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

If illegal immigrants filed federal income taxes, they wouldn't likely owe anything.

In fact, most of them would probably receive a refund.

Remember that when you hear a politician demanding that illegals pay their taxes.