IMO, this vid puts the Pippen v. Jordan flap in the proper perspective 🤔 (1 Viewer)

[ndcc]

The well placed sarcasm in this vid is priceless!

 

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I've always been of the mindset that neither guy wins 6 titles without the other.

 

[Saintman2884]

I've always been of the mindset that neither guy wins 6 titles without the other.

I don’t know if I would go quite that far in making that assessment. NBA fans, or sports fans in general these days under the age of 30, don’t necessarily understand or can fully comprehend just how great, dominant and talented of a player and performer M.J. was from the late 80’s-early 90’s. I think he probably wins maybe 2-3, maybe even 4 NBA Titles without Pippen, but 6, it’s difficult for me seeing M.J. crossing that line if Scottie had gotten his wish in 1994 and had been traded by Jerry Krause.

 

[Icon]

I don’t know if I would go quite that far in making that assessment. NBA fans, or sports fans in general these days under the age of 30, don’t necessarily understand or can fully comprehend just how great, dominant and talented of a player and performer M.J. was from the late 80’s-early 90’s. I think he probably wins maybe 2-3, maybe even 4 NBA Titles without Pippen, but 6, it’s difficult for me seeing M.J. crossing that line if Scottie had gotten his wish in 1994 and had been traded by Jerry Krause.

Right, I'm not saying neither guy would have won ANY championships without each other during the 90s, but I just don't think 6 would have happened if they weren't together. Not sure if either guy would be in a hurry to admit that right now, given whatever animosity may exist.

 

[Saintman2884]

Right, I'm not saying neither guy would have won ANY championships without each other during the 90s, but I just don't think 6 would have happened if they weren't together. Not sure if either guy would be in a hurry to admit that right now, given whatever animosity may exist.

Didnt Pippen's son die a few years ago like maybe a year after the Last Dance documentary aired? Maybe the collective stress, psychological, emotional pain and anguish mixed in with unfold, understandable grief has led him to lash out, criticize former teammates, coaches, friends, or just at life in general simply because he, Pippen, doesn't care or give two sheets what anyone thinks of his opinions anymore?

I'm not trying to trivialize or construct some over-simplification for why and what his motives could be here but I'm attempting to see this from a more human, moralistic perspective that suggests Pippen's currently in a lot of pain and grief, trying to absorb and make sense of the unthinkable for most human beings, and all of us here as parents, he's not "processing" the stages of grief he's gone through.

 

[SystemShock]

I've always been of the mindset that neither guy wins 6 titles without the other.

Every great player needs a supporting cast to win titles; Jordan is no exception, but definitely, Jordan wins without Pippen, Pippen doesn't win without Jordan.

 

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Didnt Pippen's son die a few years ago like maybe a year after the Last Dance documentary aired? Maybe the collective stress, psychological, emotional pain and anguish mixed in with unfold, understandable grief has led him to lash out, criticize former teammates, coaches, friends, or just at life in general simply because he, Pippen, doesn't care or give two sheets what anyone thinks of his opinions anymore?

I'm not trying to trivialize or construct some over-simplification for why and what his motives could be here but I'm attempting to see this from a more human, moralistic perspective that suggests Pippen's currently in a lot of pain and grief, trying to absorb and make sense of the unthinkable for most human beings, and all of us here as parents, he's not "processing" the stages of grief he's gone through.

I haven't followed all of this closely, but I wondered as well why Pippen is feeling the need to carry all this out like 20 years after both guys have retired from the NBA. In addition to factors you mentioned, perhaps he internalized a bunch of stuff during his career that is now bubbling over. If you're a competitive person and you're having to hear on a daily basis for a decade how the guy next to you at work is the greatest ever and you....well hey, you're pretty damn good, too, and you're definitely a big help!......then over time it probably becomes a constant effort to try to keep things in perspective and think more about the betterment of the team than yourself.

 

[Icon]

Every great player needs a supporting cast to win titles; Jordan is no exception, but definitely, Jordan wins without Pippen, Pippen doesn't win without Jordan.

By way of being the best player in the NBA....yes, Jordan likely would have won a few rings. But without Pippen, I don't believe it ends up being 6, and I don't believe he would have gone whatever-and-0 in the Finals. Probably more like two or three rings, and a few Finals appearances that didn't result in a title. Of course, the main issue with playing the "what if?" game is that we don't know who Pippen's replacement would be in this alternate universe, or where Pippen himself is playing.

Needless to say, I do think some of those Barkley, Reggie Miller, Ewing, Malone/Stockton types that were known for being great players who didn't win titles would have likely ended up with a few championships in that alternate universe.

 

[faceman]

Every great player needs a supporting cast to win titles; Jordan is no exception, but definitely, Jordan wins without Pippen, Pippen doesn't win without Jordan.

You can also make a good argument Dennis Rodman was just as valuable as Pippin in the last three championships.

 

[sfidc3]

Every great player needs a supporting cast to win titles; Jordan is no exception, but definitely, Jordan wins without Pippen, Pippen doesn't win without Jordan.

Yup, totally agree.....

I think what is happening here has very little to do with basketball and everything to do with personalities.....

The one thing that the 3 greatest players in the 80's had (the champions Magic, Bird, and Jordan - who came out in the 80's) was that burning competitiveness....they didn't really care that much about feelings, they were often mean/nasty, it was all about doing whatever it took (in their eyes) to get the title.....their supporting casts sometimes took abuse because of it and some (like Pippen) speak out about it now....

 

[SystemShock]

You can also make a good argument Dennis Rodman was just as valuable as Pippin in the last three championships.

I'll go one further and say Rodman taking scoring chances away from opponents and giving the ball back to Jordan was more valuable than whatever Pippen did.

And speaking of Rodman, besides the rebounds, he also played nasty defense.

 

[SystemShock]

By way of being the best player in the NBA....yes, Jordan likely would have won a few rings. But without Pippen, I don't believe it ends up being 6, and I don't believe he would have gone whatever-and-0 in the Finals. Probably more like two or three rings, and a few Finals appearances that didn't result in a title. Of course, the main issue with playing the "what if?" game is that we don't know who Pippen's replacement would be in this alternate universe, or where Pippen himself is playing.

Why do you think that? What did you see in Pippen's game that warrants those statements?

Pippen was supporting cast. The only reason why we are speaking about Pippen today is because he stayed with the Bulls through the Bull's 6 championship runs, which in turn brought this whole "could've Jordan won without Pippen" thing. I am not saying he was a bad player, he was a good player, but he was definitely supporting cast, and definitely could've been someone else in Pippen's shoes during the Bull's 6 championships run.

 

[Complex Kid]

I'll go one further and say Rodman taking scoring chances away from opponents and giving the ball back to Jordan was more valuable than whatever Pippen did.

And speaking of Rodman, besides the rebounds, he also played nasty defense.

This is a bad take.

Rodman wasn't as good on defense for those Bulls teams as he was with the Pistons and Spurs, he was more focused on rebounding sometimes to the determent of his defense.

Pippen probably accounted for just as many stops on defense as Rodman and was able to defend the best perimeter players on other teams and shut them down allowing Jordan to take the lesser player and conserve energy when needed for the offensive side. Pippen also took pressure off Jordan offensively by playing point forward and being able to score. While Rodman was a good passer and screen setter his contributions on offense paled in comparison to Pippens and I'd say Pippen was just as important defensively if not more.

 

[Complex Kid]

Why do you think that? What did you see in Pippen's game that warrants those statements?

Pippen was supporting cast. The only reason why we are speaking about Pippen today is because he stayed with the Bulls through the Bull's 6 championship runs, which in turn brought this whole "could've Jordan won without Pippen" thing. I am not saying he was a bad player, he was a good player, but he was definitely supporting cast, and definitely could've been someone else in Pippen's shoes during the Bull's 6 championships run.

I covered this in my above post but I think you are really underplaying Pippens importance on the defensive end while being able to basically play point guard on the offensive end. There wasn't a ton of those players in that era. They are all over the place now but not in 1991-1998.

 

[ndcc]

You can also make a good argument Dennis Rodman was just as valuable as Pippin in the last three championships.

...this ^^