Interesting note from Peter King's Monday Morning QB (1 Viewer)

[VicksburgSaint]

I understand the point of your post and kind of agree in theory, but this team has already upgraded our DL and LBing corps, not to mention just because we trade for Shockey doesn't necessarily mean we won't come away with 2 defensive starters in the draft. 10 will or should definately be a starter and who knows after that.

Just for arguements sake, Shockey + DRC/Ellis/Rivers, IMO, is >>>>> than DRC/Ellis/Rivers + Sims/Porter/Wheeler. The former scenario would give us an elite offense for years to come and with the FA additions and the draft additions, we would have a solid D and if Morgan stays healthy, we'd have a top 10 defense.

Shockey gives more value to this team than any 2nd rounder if the FA aquisitions work out.

Also, I know a lot of the posters on this forum like the way Colston and Deuce go about their play, but, IMO, we need some fire on both sides of the ball, which is why Vilma was such a huge addition. An Offense or Defense with a certain amount of swagger is very valuable to any team. We have been lacking swagger since Joe left and we haven't had it on D in along time.

I understand why people enjoy the idea of picking up offensive talent each year. But we continue to do so at the expense of DEFENSE, which is the ONLY thing keeping this team from legitimately contending for a championship.

Each year we keep "taking chances" with defense. Last year it was "hope Harper's knee is ok"..."I know David play Tampa-2 in Indy, but he did M2M before that...he's definitely an upgrade!"..."Clancy is a good addition...he started for the Cardinals"...."hey that Usama kid looks like a real steal (in the 3rd round)"....bottom line: our FO seems to be satisfied treading water on D, while swimming like hell on O.

This year...we are hoping McKenzie will come back strong at full strength (much more likely not to happen)...we hope David will learn to cover M2M and suddenly turn into a better than average CB for our system (much safer bet to assume otherwise)...we traded draft pick(s) to the Jets for a MLB we assume will be a stud (although we really have no idea how his knee will respond...hell, he may not even be playing by game 6)....we are just hoping everything works out. Treading water...

All this team needs is a FO/coach that believes in investing as much effort in developing a talented defense as they have committed toward offense. This team has shown what can be accomplished with a great offense....not much without a defense.

DEFENSE is the limiting factor of future Saints' success....and they better get around to working on it before their precious offense starts to fall apart.

 

['79 Saints]

The point Shawn is making is that the offense isn't as great as people assume it will be... Just like 2007, when the assumption that players such as Hollis Thomas could continue playing as if they rediscovered the fountain of youth in New Orleans.

Patten is on the downside of his career.. expecting him to be your #2 receiver is asking for trouble. Meachem is an unknown, with a hope and a prayer that he is ready to step in... Henderson has been inconsistent during his entire pro career and Copper is a ST'er.

Eric Johnson can not stay healthy for an entire season and Billy Miller is a good 2nd option at TE, but not a starter.

I'm not a fan of Shockey, but I understand the interest. Just as people argue that you cannot draft offense at the expense of the defense, the reverse is true as well.

By upgrading the linebacking corps, you perhaps filled in one starter slot for the long term. Morgan is a risk that can be minimized with the drafting of another weakside 'backer.

Howerver, just as there are holes along the defensive line, there is one at center and LG/RT could use an upgrade.

Concerns about Deuce are legitimate, but I'm far from ready to hang my hat on PT as the inside back.

If Payton is sincere about building the franchise for the long term, and not sitting around filling holes ever draft/FA period, you do what it takes to make the team a steady performer in the long term -and that's to bring in the best players regardless of position, because nearly every position is upgradable.

 

[Shawn]

You could not be more wrong...and it's pretty obvious too.

Oh really?

The way to most efficiently improve any multi-faceted system (i.e., Saints) is to replace the worst part with the best-quality part you can find. For the Saints, there can be no question that the "worst part" is any of 4-5 positions on DEFENSE.

Wrong. Not necessarily. It's about getting bang for your buck. All acquisitions aren't equal, nor do they yield equal results. The Chargers had problems running the ball early last season...then they signed Chris Chambers, and lo and behold, both the running game and passing game improved. Teams were attacking LT because they could. With Chambers, they couldn't do that any more.

Fact is, our team got worse last year because our DEFENSE played worse than in 2006. Our offense has more talent than 90% of all other teams. Our offense was talented enough to win...but our DEFENSE let them down.

I'm not even sure that's true. We were better against the run. We gave up more big plays. Our offense does not have more talent than 90% of other teams. That's just a false statement.

Regardless, that's NOT the reason we got worse last year. There wasn't an appreciable difference in defense. Our offense was less efficient, left more yards on the field, and was less likely to convert on 3rd downs.

If we do not try to get at least TWO DEFENSIVE PLAYMAKERS out of this draft (high draft picks/trades), I will consider this FO the equivalent of a blind squirrel that found a nut in 2006.

The draft isn't what we're even talking about here.

The way to improve offense (other than maybe an OL) is to change coaching philosophy to maximize the type of talent we ALREADY have.

You don't even know what you're talking about here. This is pure ********.

Although trying to get the most out of he players you have, sometimes involves putting the right players around them. It's not all about getting superstars. But as I've already pointed out, if you have a great quarterback, it's a waste of his talent to not put guys around him that can catch the ball. That is essentially the situation we have with Drew. Drew, Colston, (arguably) Bush, Evans, etc., these are all guys in their prime. Teams would kill for that nucleus, but it is an incomplete unit. Defenses know the limitations of guys like Henderson, or Miller, or Patten, and they play defense against us accordingly.

Sitting around with our fingers crossed hoping that a guy like Meachem will come around, is a waste of talent.

The best way....the QUICKEST way...to take the Saints from terrible to Superbowl is to replace terrible/mediocre defensive players with new PLAYMAKERS. Then the offensive talent will take off.

One has nothing to do with the other. And yes, you could make that point if you're trying to completely re-tool the defense. That's clearly not going to happen in one year. You can only bring in players that are available, or draft young guys who may or may not contribute for another year or two. Bringing in one top defender is not going to dramatically change that defense, because there are a number of holes.

Kinda hard to protect Colston when they know you will throw to him every series....cause you sure as heck ain't gonna run Bush consistently...and you definitely HAVE to score often to keep up....so you OBVIOUSLY are gonna throw to your best reciever.

This is the most absurd part of your post. I don't even know what point you're trying to make. Are you saying he's getting abused because they know the ball is going to him? Well that's mostly true, and it's mostly true because there's not another viable receiving threat on the team. Which is exactly my point.

You have a running back who plays best in space, you have an offensive line that's best suited to blocking in space, then you need to have an offense that forces defenses to give you space. That lack of space is what got Reggie killed last year, and it's what got Colston killed last year.

The nucleus of young talent that we have is not going to be around forever. I would strike while the iron is hot, and try to bring in an established player. I wouldn't do it at any cost, but there is, in fact, a huge need there.

Seriously, I don't normally like to say things like this, but you sound like you're just making stuff up. The only thing for sure is that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Shawn]

The point Shawn is making is that the offense isn't as great as people assume it will be... Just like 2007, when the assumption that players such as Hollis Thomas could continue playing as if they rediscovered the fountain of youth in New Orleans.

Patten is on the downside of his career.. expecting him to be your #2 receiver is asking for trouble. Meachem is an unknown, with a hope and a prayer that he is ready to step in... Henderson has been inconsistent during his entire pro career and Copper is a ST'er.

Eric Johnson can not stay healthy for an entire season and Billy Miller is a good 2nd option at TE, but not a starter.

I'm not a fan of Shockey, but I understand the interest. Just as people argue that you cannot draft offense at the expense of the defense, the reverse is true as well.

By upgrading the linebacking corps, you perhaps filled in one starter slot for the long term. Morgan is a risk that can be minimized with the drafting of another weakside 'backer.

Howerver, just as there are holes along the defensive line, there is one at center and LG/RT could use an upgrade.

Concerns about Deuce are legitimate, but I'm far from ready to hang my hat on PT as the inside back.

If Payton is sincere about building the franchise for the long term, and not sitting around filling holes ever draft/FA period, you do what it takes to make the team a steady performer in the long term -and that's to bring in the best players regardless of position, because nearly every position is upgradable.

And I'm not advocating just going after any player, or paying too high a price. As I said, it would have to be the right fit.

But this offense is much more precarious than people realize.

I'm not denying that we need to improve the defense, and I would put 90% of my draft effort towards doing that. But the offense is fragile, and getting the right veteran in that mix could make them one of the top 3 units in the league.

There's as much wishful thinking on offense this year as defense. I hope Deuce comes back...I hope Reggie plays better...I hope Devery doesn't drop 100 passes...I hope father time doesn't catch Patten...I hope Meachem actually dresses for a game...

All that hoping is wasting the talent on that offense.

 

[Saint Droopy]

I just do not get why we need another threat on a team without any D. Yes I know we have added pieces but not enough IMO.

If you score enough points to make the opposing team one-dimensional it only helps our defense (see the 2007/8 New England patriots).

 

[VicksburgSaint]

Oh really?



Wrong. Not necessarily. It's about getting bang for your buck. All acquisitions aren't equal, nor do they yield equal results. The Chargers had problems running the ball early last season...then they signed Chris Chambers, and lo and behold, both the running game and passing game improved. Teams were attacking LT because they could. With Chambers, they couldn't do that any more.



I'm not even sure that's true. We were better against the run. We gave up more big plays. Our offense does not have more talent than 90% of other teams. That's just a false statement.

Regardless, that's NOT the reason we got worse last year. There wasn't an appreciable difference in defense. Our offense was less efficient, left more yards on the field, and was less likely to convert on 3rd downs.



The draft isn't what we're even talking about here.



You don't even know what you're talking about here. This is pure ********.

Although trying to get the most out of he players you have, sometimes involves putting the right players around them. It's not all about getting superstars. But as I've already pointed out, if you have a great quarterback, it's a waste of his talent to not put guys around him that can catch the ball. That is essentially the situation we have with Drew. Drew, Colston, (arguably) Bush, Evans, etc., these are all guys in their prime. Teams would kill for that nucleus, but it is an incomplete unit. Defenses know the limitations of guys like Henderson, or Miller, or Patten, and they play defense against us accordingly.

Sitting around with our fingers crossed hoping that a guy like Meachem will come around, is a waste of talent.



One has nothing to do with the other. And yes, you could make that point if you're trying to completely re-tool the defense. That's clearly not going to happen in one year. You can only bring in players that are available, or draft young guys who may or may not contribute for another year or two. Bringing in one top defender is not going to dramatically change that defense, because there are a number of holes.



This is the most absurd part of your post. I don't even know what point you're trying to make. Are you saying he's getting abused because they know the ball is going to him? Well that's mostly true, and it's mostly true because there's not another viable receiving threat on the team. Which is exactly my point.

You have a running back who plays best in space, you have an offensive line that's best suited to blocking in space, then you need to have an offense that forces defenses to give you space. That lack of space is what got Reggie killed last year, and it's what got Colston killed last year.

The nucleus of young talent that we have is not going to be around forever. I would strike while the iron is hot, and try to bring in an established player. I wouldn't do it at any cost, but there is, in fact, a huge need there.

Seriously, I don't normally like to say things like this, but you sound like you're just making stuff up. The only thing for sure is that you don't know what you're talking about.

No...I'm not full of it.

The reason this team failed miserably last season was primarily due to the poor play of our defense. Our offense underperformed due to 1) injuries (like every other team) and 2) too much pressure to score in bunches. #2 is primarily due to the sieve we called a defense.

Remember what it was like to win a game with defense...?

THAT is the point I am making. I prefer focusing on D. You seem to prefer focusing on O. We disagree, but I will not call you names or accuse you of making **** up. I'm a grown man and understand two people can disagree without it getting personal. Have a nice day.

 

[saintkev]

How bad was injury? Broken leg? Ouch. Isn't he injured every year.

 

[GermanSaint]

And I read posts like this and I think people have been playing too much Madden or reading the teams press releases.

playing madden ? i just every game of last season

Colston is a great receiver. He's not perfect though. He doesn't stretch the field, and it allows defenses to play shallow and stack the box.

meachem , henderson , heck even patten can stretch the field , but that is not the offense we are playing .... you want 5 field stretcher on WR ?
i choose colston and his chain moving any day of the week over a one-trick-speed- pony

Anyone who watched the Saints play last year had to notice that Colston was getting physically abused.

he had sometimes dominant moments ! he abused the CBs

Sure, he made a ton of catches, but he was hurt a lot.

... and played through every game

You can't reasonably expect a player to continue to take that kind of abuse and make it through the season. With another reciever on this team that can keep defenses hones, there's no limit to how many receptions he could have. But watching him play another season of pitch and catch with Brees, followed by brutal hits, just can't continue. It's a waste of his talents.

agree with that !

Patten is a role player. You saw it last year. Sure, I like the guy, but he disappears, and he hardly strikes fear in the heart of defenses. He's not a solution.

if any role player puts up 58 catches for about 800 y i want just roleplayers besides colston , that is very good for a guy who just started 5 games.

Henderson didn't turn the corner last year. He's not a legitimate starter.

but re-signed with us for a reason , payton trust in him so i do ,too.

And Meachem has done nothing. All this re-writing of history that wants to excuse him because of his injuries is baloney. If his injury was a problem, they could have put him on IR. Meachem might very well come around, but he also might very well be the next Wesley Carroll.

he was a long term pick , just to learn behind patten and he is doing good with that , he will be our starter in midseason , i think .... he is more polished than ANY receiver from this years class

Likewise--and this is mostly my opinion--Reggie Bush suffered a lot last year because of defenses were allowed to crowd the line of scrimmage. Everyone agrees he plays better in space, but teams weren't giving us space last year. And they weren't, largely because of a lack of critical mass on offense.

it was because of bad run-blocking.

Our offense was fairly easy to scheme against last year. We had enough talent to still make plays, but not enough talent to give us consistency.

and that is paytons lack of doing half time adjustements

Our offense was good last year, but it was flawed. We ended a lot of drives quickly, or with a 4th and 1 or 4th and 2. You can cite stats, and I'm sure people will--but we saw them play, and that offense--while good--was not as good as it had been the year before.

agree here .... but it was part of the bad playcalling

But here is what it boils down to: having enough talent on offense to allow other players to make use of their skills. It does no good to have a great quarterback and bad recievers, or great recievers and no quarterback. It's about having the right balance of talent.

which we have

We have a nucleus of players--Colston, Brees, Bush at the skill positions. We have a solid offensive line. But you could get much, much more out of those same players by adding another threat to the mix.

or just playing our strength

You have to force defenses to play honest. That player does not appear to be on the roster, and sitting on your hands hoping that Meachem will come around, or that proven journeymen tight-ends, or an over-the-hill David Patten are the answer is complete idiocy.

you mean we can pick just a WR to replace over the hill patten ? or with the hope to replace meachem on the reserve ?

again ! how many quality-skill players do you want to have ? look at the giants .... and how they won the Trophy

 

[bobad]

No...I'm not full of it.

The reason this team failed miserably last season was primarily due to the poor play of our defense. Our offense underperformed due to 1) injuries (like every other team) and 2) too much pressure to score in bunches. #2 is primarily due to the sieve we called a defense.

Remember what it was like to win a game with defense...?

THAT is the point I am making. I prefer focusing on D. You seem to prefer focusing on O. We disagree, but I will not call you names or accuse you of making **** up. I'm a grown man and understand two people can disagree without it getting personal. Have a nice day.

I couldn't agree with you more on both your posts. Someone is forgetting that our offense was playing catch up for much of our posession time last year. You can't blame people for getting wrapped up in a high-powered passing offense, because after all, they are fun to watch. In all the excitement of the air being filled with footballs and flying feet, they tend to not notice that the offense is being seriously limited by the defense. Your high powered offense can't score many points if your defense can't get the other team off the field. That was the Saints problem last year, as you said. We scored plenty enough points to make the playoffs. A little aside is that our running game hurt our defense last year. A good running game is the defense's best friend, and except for the last game, our defense was friendless last year. Lesson learned, I hope.


Shockey is like a volcano. Nobody knows when he will belch forth his toxic rhetoric, but he certainly will. That mouth is unstoppable. If Payton thinks he can keep him shut up, he is deluding himself. Sure, Coach and Brees can manage him for a while. But sooner or later, they will have a full-blown Shockey eruption to deal with. Out team doesn't need those types of distractions and embarrassment in the national media.

Cheers!