Is online schooling inferior to onsite schooling? (1 Viewer)

Yatman

threadkiller
Joined
Jan 27, 2000
Messages
4,883
Reaction score
3,646
Offline
If so, shouldn't universities be adjusting tuitions and counties adjusting ed taxes accordingly? (not that I believe for a moment either will)

If not, please explain. I happen to agree with students/families who feel robbed by the current experience.

Yale student sues university claiming online courses were inferior, seeks tuition refund, class action status
Jonathan Michel claims the online experience was inferior and that Yale breached its contract with him and other students and unjustly enriched itself when it did not refund tuition. His lawyers are seeking class action status so that they can represent other students.
... Michel claims that the online learning Yale instituted March 23 “cannot replace the comprehensive educational experience promised by” Yale, such as “access to facilities, materials, and faculty, and the opportunity for on campus living, school events, collaborative learning, dialogue, feedback and critique are essential to the in-person educational experience.” It is improper, the lawsuit claims, for Yale to pass the costs of the closure onto students and their families and that they are entitled to a partial refund of tuition and fees, which total about $55,000.
Those who attend Yale specifically chose not to attend an online university, the suit claims.
 

Zack Lee

VIP Contributor
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
21,068
Reaction score
31,473
Location
a van down by the river
Offline
they probably should pass on some of the savings of cost on their end but unless enrollment takes a drastic drop, they have no incentive to do so. Schools trot out teams where they know they will get murdered by 7 or 8 touchdowns for nothing more than money. They aren't likely to just do the right thing unless the money is affected.
 

boutrous

the only way I know how
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
5,869
Reaction score
7,321
Age
44
Location
Kenner, Brah
Online
If so, shouldn't universities be adjusting tuitions and counties adjusting ed taxes accordingly? (not that I believe for a moment either will)

If not, please explain. I happen to agree with students/families who feel robbed by the current experience.

Yale student sues university claiming online courses were inferior, seeks tuition refund, class action status
It's a forking crisis, not a normal decision based changed. The professors still had to be paid and it's not like Yale knew they would have to switch to online at the beginning of the Spring semester. I am assuming this is for the Spring semester and not for Fall.
 
OP
Yatman

Yatman

threadkiller
Joined
Jan 27, 2000
Messages
4,883
Reaction score
3,646
Offline
It's a forking crisis, not a normal decision based changed. The professors still had to be paid and it's not like Yale knew they would have to switch to online at the beginning of the Spring semester. I am assuming this is for the Spring semester and not for Fall.
all true, but what about now and moving forward
 

Rickboy

Nom Nom Nom Nom.. me hungry for a SuperBowl
Platinum VIP Contributor
Joined
Jan 22, 2000
Messages
14,462
Reaction score
4,228
Age
49
Location
Colorado
Offline
From my personal experience, in person learning is better because you are more able to engage with the instructor. I can make online learning work for me but I have to put extra effort into taking notes and maintaining my attention. With online learning, there is very little onus on the instructor to maintain the audience's attention and they try less to do so. There is a also WAY too much reliance on Powerpoint. Instructors should learn to use the whiteboard features more.

My son is autistic and online learning is especially problematical there. I'm about to have it out with the school board over their decision to shut down in person learning for the autism specialized charter school they have. That school maintains an 1:2 teacher to student ratio and there are probably going to be only 5 students per classroom. Using WebEx has been terrible at best for my son. It may get better this semester but only because I'm paying for an in home therapist that can help him when he does WebEx.
 

Rickboy

Nom Nom Nom Nom.. me hungry for a SuperBowl
Platinum VIP Contributor
Joined
Jan 22, 2000
Messages
14,462
Reaction score
4,228
Age
49
Location
Colorado
Offline
all true, but what about now and moving forward
IF this is going to be the norm, then schools need to take the time to teach students HOW to use online learning. They also need to train teachers on HOW to teach online. It's a skill set that neither side has right now.
 

efil4stnias

one lonely Beastie i be...
VIP Contributor
Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
32,828
Reaction score
31,499
Location
Covington
Offline
It's a forking crisis, not a normal decision based changed. The professors still had to be paid and it's not like Yale knew they would have to switch to online at the beginning of the Spring semester. I am assuming this is for the Spring semester and not for Fall.
As Yatman explained, going forward.

We ( Parents of kids in High School ) brought this up via email with our oldests' school. I have no issue paying tuition when kids are in school because they are "immersed" in learning ALONG with social skill building ( dealing with adversity, managing friendships etc etc ) . All tools that are needed as they become adults.

For the 2020-21 year, tuition was due in MAY 2020. this year i paid half. The other half due in November. I wrote them stating that if school is once again relegated on on-line instruction, i will decide what premium i will pay for the remainder of my amount due. Its that simple. My child is not getting the same level of "experience" on-line as in school. So why would i pay the same amount for less? Why should i be expected to pay for teachers salaries when the school has had 5 months to come up with a plan ( and tap into the Federal Government for PPP/ low interest loans etc ) and I dont have access to the same facilities to offset my losses?

Unfortunately for my youngest, my wife paid that in full. So that is a loss should we go back to on-line.

But they will have to do something. They cannot expect folks to pay full tuition for half the service.
 

boutrous

the only way I know how
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
5,869
Reaction score
7,321
Age
44
Location
Kenner, Brah
Online
all true, but what about now and moving forward
I was commenting about the lawsuit. I doubt there is a lawsuit about what might possibly happen moving forward so I assumed it was about Spring 2020.

But, it's a rough situation. Moving forward, you still have to pay professors, but maybe you could sell access to the course to more people and make it less expensive per person. I'm sure they will argue this would lessen the exclusivity of Yale or something. I certainly don't have the answers. My youngest daughter is about to start college for the first time and I'm not really sure what they are going to be doing.
 

efil4stnias

one lonely Beastie i be...
VIP Contributor
Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
32,828
Reaction score
31,499
Location
Covington
Offline
I was commenting about the lawsuit. I doubt there is a lawsuit about what might possibly happen moving forward so I assumed it was about Spring 2020.

But, it's a rough situation. Moving forward, you still have to pay professors, but maybe you could sell access to the course to more people and make it less expensive per person. I'm sure they will argue this would lessen the exclusivity of Yale or something. I certainly don't have the answers. My youngest daughter is about to start and I'm not really sure what they are going to be doing.
are you ok paying full tuition for college yet not getting the full college experience?
 

boutrous

the only way I know how
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
5,869
Reaction score
7,321
Age
44
Location
Kenner, Brah
Online
are you ok paying full tuition for college yet not getting the full college experience?
Yes, for now because I understand they want to get back to the "normal" experience as soon as possible. I also understand the professors and staff still need to be paid. It's not like they intend to go full "University of Phoenix" and never have in person classes again. And if they did, then we would reevaluate where she is attending. They are just trying to get through this mess the same as all of us.
 
Joined
Jul 19, 2001
Messages
25,087
Reaction score
64,235
Age
51
Location
GBTR
Offline
IF this is going to be the norm, then schools need to take the time to teach students HOW to use online learning. They also need to train teachers on HOW to teach online. It's a skill set that neither side has right now.
Honestly, instructor led online training is less effective than interactive modules. The consistency and interactivity of a virtual course doesn't over or under emphasize a topic and doesn't miss any lesson steps.

The instructor is best used for questions students have or to augment the virtual when a student needs more 1 vs 1. IMHO

Of course, this is for the majority and doesn't take into acct special circumstances and needs of different children.
 

guidomerkinsrules

W H A T E V I R
VIP Contributor
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
59,219
Reaction score
95,176
Location
by the cemeteries
Online
Very good and complicated question
1st it should be noted that a goodly chunk of tuition is not going to teacher salaries but to admin and facilities
Can’t really divest of facilities now (but almost certainly campuses will have to be reimagined to some degree)
But if students wanted to haircut the VP of Chalkboards or the COO of Alumni foot massages, I’m ok with that
- I do think boutros is correct and this is kinda kids being karens
I would hope that students at Yale would be a bit more responsible for their own learning
But
If we want to talk about HS then yes, for many/most it seems an inferior process
There are probably some high achieving kids who excel (unless they’re competitive and need the other students to push them) - also social anxiety kids seem to do a bit better with distance learning
But distance learning is obviously a very specific and limited teaching style - the teacher does not have many tools to make students pay attention or even to visualize a problem physically very well
Plus students don’t get the peer interaction that can be very valuable to learning

All that being said, teachers are doing even more prep and learning on the fly, so seeing this as an input/output problem is very myopic
 

JLaneSaints

Hall-of-Famer
VIP Contributor
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Messages
3,718
Reaction score
2,988
Offline
As it stands right now, it's not even close. Online schooling is not much different than no schooling.

My kids teachers put up some material, a worksheet, one student does it, group texts the answer, everyone is done in one hour and goofs off the rest of the day.

Then at the end of the quarter they used the grades from the previous quarter. Not one zoom conference class, nothing. Because we have students without the proper bandwith to stay connected, so they just don't do it.
 

CoolBrees

Veteran Starter
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
650
Reaction score
1,153
Age
43
Location
Portland, OR
Offline
If I am not mistaken, teachers and professors are on yearly contracts until they achieve tenure. Those contracts begin and end commensurate the administrative school year. So those contracts were signed a while ago, and you have to pay on them.

And add in unions and you will find changing pay or rates is next to impossible.
——
I just want to say that in my worthless opinion we (the US) should all bite the bullet, distance learn the fall semester, and just get it over with. We will know a lot more next winter break- like if a vaccine is or nearly is viable. Then we can plan on moving back into buildings. But if the vaccines don’t work, because all of our collective eggs are being placed in that basket, then we are looking at needing long term solutions; but not just for schools. All public places (city building, libraries, etc) and many private businesses (gym, massage, etc) are going to be modified with longer term solutions. It is going to take so much money oh man...

it’s also why I am against spending a bunch of money on fancy distance learning programs right now. You may only need it for 1 school year and then what? And the A/V equipment stays relevant the for like a year. Again, in December I believe we will have a clearer view of our future. On a whole lotta levels really.
 

efil4stnias

one lonely Beastie i be...
VIP Contributor
Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
32,828
Reaction score
31,499
Location
Covington
Offline
Yes, for now because I understand they want to get back to the "normal" experience as soon as possible. I also understand the professors and staff still need to be paid. It's not like they intend to go full "University of Phoenix" and never have in person classes again. And if they did, then we would reevaluate where she is attending. They are just trying to get through this mess the same as all of us.
Ok i can appreciate that sentiment.

However, wouldnt that sentiment work both ways ? ( trying to get thru same as all of us). Why shouldnt an entity like a college be thinking about the tuition paying parents in the same manner in which you think of the school? I mean, no one is on campus. So what happens to all those expenses they would normally have when 10,000 kids are on campus? Why do they get a pass for not thinking in the same manner?

No one is asking for school to be free. Asking for it to be fairly priced.
 

guidomerkinsrules

W H A T E V I R
VIP Contributor
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
59,219
Reaction score
95,176
Location
by the cemeteries
Online
IF this is going to be the norm, then schools need to take the time to teach students HOW to use online learning. They also need to train teachers on HOW to teach online. It's a skill set that neither side has right now.
YES!
And this is exactly what April to now should have been
Problem is you’re asking admins who have close to zero relationship with this teaching style to know and implement best practices
- not going to work
And it’s why most effort has been ‘recreate F2F class but put it in a video
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)



Headlines

Top Bottom