Is the fix in for Taysom? (27 Viewers)

Ihartsaints

Subscribing Member
VIP Subscribing Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
848
Reaction score
1,366
Location
Washington DC
Offline
Sticky Post
We have all heard the praise for Jameis from Payton, Jordan and the media all but anointing Winston the starter.

I expect that, if the goal is to draw JW back to the team. What is odd to me is the silence from the team, Taysom and his agent.

Taysom must be aware of the "You are not the one" vibe floating around. I would expect a bit more push back from him or his agent. Their silence sounds like complacency to me. Makes me wonder if there isn't a quiet deal at work here.

If Taysom has any doubt where he stands with the team, I just think there would be more buzz ...
 

Nonreg

Super Forum Fanatic
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,999
Reaction score
1,002
Age
35
Location
Anderson, SC
Offline
Based on 4 career starts (his first 4 starts at QB in approx 4 years).

There was another guy a few years back that played QB exclusively all through college... never had a major injury... and ended up a top draft pick...
His 1st 4 career starts he went 0-4, had 3 TDs and 11 INTs.

Was that a big enough sample size to write that guy off and say that he didn’t have what it takes to be a starting caliber NFL QB?

His coaches thought “no” and let him continue to work on it... that player was Peyton Manning.

...and before you tell me about how bad that Colts team sucked, he had Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, Marcus Pollard, and Jerome Pathon among his weapons.

Point is, it takes more than 4 starts at QB to tell what a guy can/can’t do.
How many fumbles did he have? How many wide open WR did he completely miss? It’s more than stats; it’s the ability to move the chains and score TDS. Sure Taysom was 3-1; but he was not an efficient QB. Winning against 3 very subjective teams does not make you Peyton Manning
 

nakadish

Guest
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
75
Reaction score
134
Offline
That's the thing though, he does have to renegotiate. The contract will 100% void regardless of what happens.

If he wants to stay with the Saints, yes. But, once the contract is voided, he can go anywhere he wants.
 

Saint Lattimore

Out on bond... Best Lawyer $$ can buy though..
Joined
Jun 14, 2018
Messages
5,392
Reaction score
14,698
Age
36
Location
Marietta, Ga.
Offline
How many fumbles did he have? How many wide open WR did he completely miss? It’s more than stats; it’s the ability to move the chains and score TDS. Sure Taysom was 3-1; but he was not an efficient QB. Winning against 3 very subjective teams does not make you Peyton Manning
I get it... I’m not going to change your mind, and you’re not going to change mine.

I think going 3-1 means something... you think it’s overblown.
I think Peyton Manning throwing 11 INTs over his first 4 NFL starts is worse than Taysom losing 3-4 fumbles...

My point is that I don’t believe 4 career starts at QB is a big enough sample size to determine that Taysom Hill definitively isn’t the guy for the job.
 

MV2

Pro-Bowler
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
2,454
Reaction score
4,186
Age
43
Online
I can see where you are coming from. You take right on the line of one side and I am taking the other side of the line, it seems. Nothing wrong with that and, as said, I can see how you would formulate your take, as well. I agree that he has the TOOLS...he is a giant block of POTENTIAL that hasn't shown it yet. My concern with Hill IS the injury, but I think, as in the Falcons game, he will run on called plays and when he doesn't have a pass option. Payton will have him cherry picked on runs, so wouldn't have as much injury chance, BUT, yes, he does still run hard on each play he does run which raises that concern. If he goes down for injury, which I think he might this season, Winston could be called on if he doesn't start. He could also end up being #3 by the end of the year. I agree that Hill also, to be successful, will be drawing on his threat to run more than a pocket passer...but that is his game...those 2 skills. If he is even a GOOD passer, the entire skillset is leveled up with his potential to help win games. I think he manages a CSP offense well if starts.

I am on the other side of the coin with Winston's ceiling. I think he has pretty much hit it. Of course he has a great, live arm, but you need technique, accuracy and decision making. This is a video of all his INTS from 2015-2018, so seasons before Arians and they are in chronological order. He threw less in those years, yes BUT...It isn't the NUMBER of INTS that are concerning it is the situations and the INTS themselves that are concerning. You consistently see bad throws to wide open receivers with no pressure, thrown straight TO defenders and other options just sitting open as he tries to thread it into a blanketed WR who is not open at all...not even a 50/50 ball. I don't count "time running off the clock" hail mary throws either. It is his decision making. Most of his INT's are a receiver running a bad route or not knowing the offense, it is just a really really bad decision on top of bad ball placement. These are not scheme or errant playcalling, just flat out bad execution. You can analyze QB's INT's and see when just going for a 50/50 ball in the right situation, a WR falling down, a wrong route, etc. The film doesn't always show that, but you can usually have a good take away from it. A large % of his INT's are just perplexing.


2015-2018 in chronological order
Yeah Winston needs work too to become our true #1. His decision making is really his only knock. And to me coaching is what he lacked. Hell Brett Favre was a HOF QB and he threw alot of picks as well. It's that overconfidence that they can fit a ball anywhere. Drew had that when he was younger but the difference is he had world class accuracy and timing so he pulled it off.
 

Taker597

Hall-of-Famer
VIP Contributor
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
11,244
Reaction score
21,006
Age
31
Location
Victoria, TX
Online
We are in the same camp. I may be reading into something that's not there, but it seems to me that the Saints could have easily offered Taysom an incentive based contract that would pay him QB1 money if he wins the starting job, and joker money if he does not. And, the Saints would be able to guarantee that Taysom is with the Saints for the next few years.

But, instead they offered Taysom a contract that pays him QB1 money in 22, or they have to void his contract if Taysom isn't willing to renegotiate. I don't think the Saints offer Taysom that kind of contract if they weren't pretty sure that Taysom was going to start. I'd hate to see Taysom trucking Saints dbs in another uniform.
No, the contract automatically voids.

No QB gets a 140 million dollar(Top 5 contract money) extension without elite production. It's absurd. That's Russell Wilson pay.
 

nakadish

Guest
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
75
Reaction score
134
Offline
No, the contract automatically voids.

No QB gets a 140 million dollar(Top 5 contract money) extension without elite production. It's absurd. That's Russell Wilson pay.

The point still remains. Why not offer a incentive based contract that keeps Taysom on the roster if he doesn't win the starting job?
 

Saint Kamara

Formerly SaintSproles and SaintReggie
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
38,960
Reaction score
52,125
Age
56
Location
Austin, TX
Offline
If Payton does indeed go with Taysom, do you think that Payton's long term vision of the Saints and the NFL trend towards more athletic QBs has anything to do with the decision? It seems to me that there's more to it than just Taysom vs Winston.
No, I think he wants Winston to be the answer, a pocket passer. It's what this offense has been built around for 15 seasons.
 

Taker597

Hall-of-Famer
VIP Contributor
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
11,244
Reaction score
21,006
Age
31
Location
Victoria, TX
Online
The point still remains. Why not offer a incentive based contract that keeps Taysom on the roster if he doesn't win the starting job?
The point still remains. Why not offer a incentive based contract that keeps Taysom on the roster if he doesn't win the starting job?
It’s probably his agent wanting to protect Hill "theoretical" value. I don't see any team having any interest is giving him that offer at 32 years old.

It was a silly contract. Gonna an interesting story down the road why does a bogus $140 million dollar contract exist. Half troll job, I suppose
 

Groovepro

ALL-MADDEN TEAM
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
2,131
Reaction score
1,182
Age
48
Location
Washington, La. (but touring nationally mostly)
Offline
If Payton does indeed go with Taysom, do you think that Payton's long term vision of the Saints and the NFL trend towards more athletic QBs has anything to do with the decision? It seems to me that there's more to it than just Taysom vs Winston.
That is an interesting point. I don't think it is a "follow the trend" per se, but just what he was dealt when had a Hill on the roster. If he hadn't been thrust into the "do it all" roles, he wouldn't have stayed on the roster with a legit chance to compete for being "the guy". Having seen that sort of player who just needs to be a trustworthy passer/game manager but who does have the ability to extend plays on numerous levels (which in a mindset, as well), I think he is intrigued with the notion because it surely opens up his playbook. If Winston does falter, you could see Book jump to #2 due if Hill sticks at #1 (either due to a benching or because he stayed starter) just due to his skillset. He has more to offer than Siemian as a passer. YES, a rookie coming in at QB and no guarantees, but he ticks a lot of the CSP boxes...even with NOT being a prototypical passer. But, I think that is the point. (Don't think I am saying Book is all world and will be our franchise QB...just using a bit of comparison and situation).
 

jasonsw

Long live Duke and Goose
VIP Contributor
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
Messages
4,447
Reaction score
10,440
Age
40
Location
Bastrop
Online
It’s probably his agent wanting to protect Hill "theoretical" value. I don't see any team having any interest is giving him that offer at 32 years old.

It was a silly contract. Gonna an interesting story down the road why does a bogus $140 million dollar contract exist. Half troll job, I suppose
I completely forgot about that contract. Feels like alot has happened since then
 

Groovepro

ALL-MADDEN TEAM
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
2,131
Reaction score
1,182
Age
48
Location
Washington, La. (but touring nationally mostly)
Offline
No, I think he wants Winston to be the answer, a pocket passer. It's what this offense has been built around for 15 seasons.
I think he wants who gives him the best chance to WIN. He almost re-wrote his playbook with Brees coming in. Brees was amazed that they ran so many of the same concepts, terminology and plays that Brees was used to. CSP incorporated a lot of what Drew did well and built an offense around him...as talked about in this interview. I have a few seasons of the Giant's offensive play books when CSP was there and it is pretty different than what he put together for the Saints. HE has a more "pocket passer" offense because he had Drew. He has been shown to tweak and work around his players more often than not. I know he doesn't want a "QB tuck/run" offense by any means, but there is intrigue with having a player who brings other aspects to the game.

 

Saint Kamara

Formerly SaintSproles and SaintReggie
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
38,960
Reaction score
52,125
Age
56
Location
Austin, TX
Offline
How many fumbles did he have? How many wide open WR did he completely miss? It’s more than stats; it’s the ability to move the chains and score TDS. Sure Taysom was 3-1; but he was not an efficient QB. Winning against 3 very subjective teams does not make you Peyton Manning
He had 11 interceptions in 4 games, lol. That's a pace of 44 interceptions on the season.
 

Groovepro

ALL-MADDEN TEAM
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
2,131
Reaction score
1,182
Age
48
Location
Washington, La. (but touring nationally mostly)
Offline
Yeah Winston needs work too to become our true #1. His decision making is really his only knock. And to me coaching is what he lacked. Hell Brett Favre was a HOF QB and he threw alot of picks as well. It's that overconfidence that they can fit a ball anywhere. Drew had that when he was younger but the difference is he had world class accuracy and timing so he pulled it off.
I hear you on that. It isn't just his decision making, there are some pretty bad mechanical issues he has. He has a different "set up" and release on different throws...especially outs to the flat. He has a BEAUTIFUL deep ball when sets up and throws between the hashes. (Yes, the set up and release on a long, arching deep ball is different from intermediate/short. But, the ball should come out of the hand and over top consistently on all throws). The strong armed QB's have a problem with thinking because of their arm strength they can just "muscle" it into the receiver AFTER he is open and get it there fast enough to execute. They don't keep in mind that if you stare him down and then throw...it is still a late throw and projecting to D where it is going, giving them a great chance to make a play on the ball or converge. Jeff George had that problem. To a degree, Jeff Blake had that issue and would try to force a ball THROUGH levels of coverage as opposed to over. In NOLA, he developed a lot more touch and anticipation.

The difference with guys like Favre is that the "gamble" usually had a pay off. Sometimes, situationally, you HAVE to give it that shot...take it into your own hands and try to make the play...especially when know it could be magical. To a degree, you have some of that ability with Hill. He has tenacity, can run and or utilize those skills to escape if plays breakdown to extend TO pass. INTs or FUMBLES when committed errantly are different than those committed when making an aggressive play, in situations that could reap high benefits if successful. A player making an amazing play out of nothing and losing a fumble because of the effort is something to be able to live with if the result isn't always a TO. Consistent bad decisions resulting in TO's and points off TO's that aren't the result of extreme effort or a gamble worth taking (pick 6's with wide open WR in the flat or thrown straight to the D with no other reason than a horrible throw) are epic concerns and not tolerated.
 

Taker597

Hall-of-Famer
VIP Contributor
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
11,244
Reaction score
21,006
Age
31
Location
Victoria, TX
Online
He had 11 interceptions in 4 games, lol. That's a pace of 44 interceptions on the season.
We talking Winston with a broken thumb in his throwing hand missing his best pass catchers where he only had 30 INT for season not 44?

I really don't like this whole rabbit hole of past stats argument with Taysom or Winston. I'm pretty much in the driver seat of giving both of them a clean slate when the QB competition begins.

These stats anecdote really don't paint the picture from then and now from a players development perspective. If Winston is working as hard as he can to prove doubters wrong. So, is Taysom. I don't know what offseason program he runs in Utah, but I'm pretty sure that he isn't handing a job that he has been wanting for 5 years in the making on a silver platter to Winston.

I don't see that. Hill might be at a huge disadvantage due to passing talent, long term viability in question, and his skillet being better used a Flex player than a pocket passer. It still won't be easy for Winston.

Winston has got to show up like the franchise QB that he supposed to be, because if he doesn't blow the doors off this competition with the physical talent that he possess as a passer. It's going to be a long mediocre year.
 

gtaz21

Groundskeeper
Joined
Oct 9, 2004
Messages
3,850
Reaction score
2,800
Location
Los Angeles
Offline
This is a non-issue. One must clearly show that he is better than the other one. If one can't, then what difference does it make who starts?
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users who are viewing this thread

 

New Orleans Saints Twitter Feed

 

Headlines

Top Bottom