I've always thought that certain injuries could be avoided based on Skill of the player (1 Viewer)

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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Or control of his body, knowledge of the game. I've just never been able to quantify it or explain it.

Take Anthony's knee injury in the pre-season game. My immediate thought was his lack of awareness/over analyzing things in front of him didn't allow him to play the game cognizant of things going on around him. Thus he was completely unaware of the blocker...zoned out per se.


After reading this article I have something to kind of cement my thoughts. No this isn't a me picking on Anthony thread...his was just the example I clearly remember in my head where i first said it to myself.

Very wonderful read. This is the guy also responsible for the Michael Thomas route running video I've posted.

Enjoy!



It’s antithetical to what impresses a lot of people who watch football. They confuse the raw tools of great athletic ability with good players.

A great athlete possesses some or all of these qualities: size, speed, strength, hand-eye coordination, and/or flexibility. A good practitioner of his profession understands how to use these raw tools in a variety of situations.

A great athlete that lacks a baseline technical facility at his position can do some incredible things based on his reaction to what’s immediately in front of him. But it’s a limited and often dangerous proposition for him long-term.

Because he lacks a strong library of experiences, technique, and mental understanding of the game, he’s in a vulnerable position on the field far too often. Good players with these skills have greater success dictating the game within the game.
When they cannot, these skills help them maintain control of their bodies to a degree that they’re more often in a position to protect themselves when their opponent wins the match up. Don’t get me wrong, good players get hurt all the time, but there is a difference between freak injuries, injuries caused by situations a player cannot anticipate no matter how good they are, and injuries due to a player’s lack of skill or preparation.
Michael Bennett got hurt the week before the play I’m about to share with you. Jake Matthews cut him at the knees, an act that embodies the fine line between the need to have awareness and understanding of the game and not letting this knowledge limit your aggression. While I have no proof, based on my experience studying the game, I’d bet Bennett’s injury would have been much worse if he wasn’t as experienced and technically sound at his craft.
https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2016/10/27/the-nfl-lens-economy-of-movement-with-michael-bennett/
 

LoE

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I think that point is a given. Nice that someone wrote it all up - but I think we all knew that in our hearts already.
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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I think that point is a given. Nice that someone wrote it all up - but I think we all knew that in our hearts already.
Likely. Just the first time I've ever seen it explained/discussed. Its something you can't search on google and expect to get an article on it lol. Or maybe you can and I never tried. Shrugs. Just though it was a good read and maybe worth the discussion. Maybe not :idunno:
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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I think that is an over simplification. Injuries happen for 1000s of reasons.
You missed it.

He didn't try to quantify why they happen...we know that. He just tried to explain that some can be avoided to an extent. Freak Injuries still happen, cut blocks still happen but a guy being cut blocked that isn't aware it may happen is likely to get injured worse than a guy who at least attempted to protect himself or had control of his motions so that he didn't take the full brunt of the force.
 

kcirdor

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I’d bet Bennett’s injury would have been much worse if he wasn’t as experienced and technically sound at his craft.
This is quite a stupid statement. Bennett wasn't even prepared for the Cut block, he had his eyes in the backfield and his left leg was planted when Matthews cut him. He had no chance to defend himself because his technique was garbage. If he was so technically sound at this craft he would have had this hands on Matthews and controlled his momentum and avoided injury all together.
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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This is quite a stupid statement. Bennett wasn't even prepared for the Cut block, he had his eyes in the backfield when Matthews cut him. If he was so technically sound at this craft he would have had this hands on Matthews and controlled his momentum and avoided injury all together.
Wow you've been calling opinions stupid quite frequently lately. Is that how you swipe away a persons POV just because you don't agree. IIRC you've said the same about anything Bclemms posted in the Ingram Benched thread.


Just because its over simplified or you don't agree doesn't make it stupid..but I digress.

I should probably delete this thread



He also mentioned body control. Perhaps the slightest difference in stance because of how little wasted motion he uses saved him. If his leg is wider when he's cut or his motion isn't controlled its a worse injury. Maybe his legs aren't as spaced during impact...anything. Just because you can't wrap your head around all the moving parts doesn't make the opinion stupid.
 

kcirdor

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Wow you've been calling opinions stupid quite frequently lately. Is that how you swipe away a persons POV just because you don't agree. IIRC you've said the same about anything Bclemms posted in the Ingram Benched thread.


Just because its over simplified or you don't agree doesn't make it stupid..but I digress.

I should probably delete this thread
Please do not delete this thread. This is a perfect example of where our resident scouts get their ideas. The dude made a statement that was completely out of reality. It is stupid. Bennet's technique on that play was completely amateur at best.

I said what I said to Bclemms because he came up with a stat line to support his idea that Mark Ingram wasn't a good running back. I refuted everything he said. I've had the same discussion with you in the past as well. But you guys continue to use numbers without any CONTEXT to how this team's player roles are assigned. As soon as you are confronted with Context you disappear..

Prove me wrong.
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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Please do not delete this thread. This is a perfect example of where our resident scouts get their ideas. The dude made a statement that was completely out of reality. It is stupid. Bennet's technique on that play was completely amateur at best.

I said what I said to Bclemms because he came up with a stat line to support his idea that Mark Ingram wasn't a good running back. I refuted everything he said. I've had the same discussion with you in the past as well. But you guys continue to use numbers without any CONTEXT to how this team's player roles are assigned. As soon as you are confronted with Context you disappear..

Prove me wrong.
Referring to people as resident scounts etc etc suggest a personal disdain for people who try to share information. Everything shared isn't always wrong or always right. Everyone gets caught up in having a personal opinion or maybe a misguided thought or perhaps tunnel vision.

Doesn't necessarily make EVERYTHING they bring to the table wrong. You appear to be on a mission to disparage anyone that is known as a "resident scout" or whatever you feel about it.


We share because we have different POV's and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm as guilty as anyone maybe pushing a personal agenda or having tunnel vision but technically that is what you are doing now and don't realize. You are on a mission but hey whatever man...


This same guy you are trying to write off because of one "Stupid statement" is the same guy who did the Vid on Michael Thomas and his ability to run routes when everyone leading up to the draft was questioning that ability because he was in a simple offense and didn't run many.

People can't be absolutely correct on every statement but searching to magnify any misstep just to prove they are wrong at times is a waste of that.


Also calling something stupid is not context
 

kcirdor

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I fully respect bclemms and your ideas, but every time ive confronted you guys in the past with context you disappear and dont do anything to refute said context. Then the next week yall make the same statements. So we have to go through the same discovery process again. Number tell a story but they only tell the end of the story they don't tell you the whole story. You guys are well received and trusted here so when i continually see yall make judgement with disparaging statements about players on this team with only half of the story it irks me.
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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I fully respect bclemms and your ideas, but every time ive confronted you guys in the past with context you disappear and dont do anything to refute said context. Then the next week yall make the same statements. So we have to go through the same discovery process again. Number tell a story but they only tell the end of the story they don't tell you the whole story. You guys are well received and trusted here so when i continually see yall make judgement and disparaging statements about players on this team with only half of the story it irks me.
I don't use #'s I use quotes so you've got the wrong guy personally.


I use information more from what i hear the coaches say...its why I'm usually quoting Payton. So again it sounds more personal than anything because I'm only as good as the information I get.

If SP is speaking coach speak and I don't decipher and then the next week we do something completely opposite of what he said the previous week of course I'm going to look bad but I'm not one to use #'s.

I don't even believe #'s tell the entire story. You are currently holding on to an opinion and then I'm having to refute it and then you are still going to feel like that's me. You are no different than what you are trying to magnify about us.


I digress man.
 

Rugger

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You missed it.

He didn't try to quantify why they happen...we know that. He just tried to explain that some can be avoided to an extent. Freak Injuries still happen, cut blocks still happen but a guy being cut blocked that isn't aware it may happen is likely to get injured worse than a guy who at least attempted to protect himself or had control of his motions so that he didn't take the full brunt of the force.
I think that is a given in all areas of life. You are probably more likely to get knocked out by a sucker punch that you didn't see coming or more injured from getting blindsided in a car accident. However plenty of knocks and injures happen when you do see things coming...or maybe should have? Our bodies have an innate ability to protect ourselves from danger. Our heart rate increases, our muscles respond faster. Neuro-chemicals are dumped into our brain. So yea I would imagine that players would be able to protect themselves better from hits that they saw coming.

What I am trying to understand is how it connects to the level of "skill" with a player. I guess you are right that increased awareness probably helps prevent hits that you don't see coming. I suppose on the other side of the coin, players like Ray Lewis was great because his level of awareness allowed him to move untouched, through traffic, to a ball carrier.

With that said, I am not sure to what degree skill level is applicable to avoiding injuries. I am also not sure what area really helps. I have always heard of players having good instincts, but maybe it is better peripheral vision? Maybe they have a quick read and react cognition. Maybe they can move their eyes fast and scan the field easier? I don't know.

I do see some merit with the idea. I am just not sure how one would go about definitively making that connection through a scientific method.
 

St.Dan

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Well-analyzed piece. And no, it's not an oversimplification to point out how important the mental part of the game is. Here's a comparison, at the same position as Anthony -- did Sam Mills, who was quite the master at diagnosing plays, get hurt as frequently as some of these players do today? Of course not, because he knew how to play the position.

Admittedly, Jonathan Vilma dealt with knee issues off and on during his career. But, those were purely physical in nature and not because he lacked awareness on the field.
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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I think that is a given in all areas of life. You are probably more likely to get knocked out by a sucker punch that you didn't see coming or more injured from getting blindsided in a car accident. However plenty of knocks and injures happen when you do see things coming...or maybe should have? Our bodies have an innate ability to protect ourselves from danger. Our heart rate increases, our muscles respond faster. Neuro-chemicals are dumped into our brain. So yea I would imagine that players would be able to protect themselves better from hits that they saw coming.

What I am trying to understand is how it connects to the level of "skill" with a player. I guess you are right that increased awareness probably helps prevent hits that you don't see coming. I suppose on the other side of the coin, players like Ray Lewis was great because his level of awareness allowed him to move untouched, through traffic, to a ball carrier.

With that said, I am not sure to what degree skill level is applicable to avoiding injuries. I am also not sure what area really helps. I have always heard of players having good instincts, but maybe it is better peripheral vision? Maybe they have a quick read and react cognition. Maybe they can move their eyes fast and scan the field easier? I don't know.

I do see some merit with the idea. I am just not sure how one would go about definitively making that connection through a scientific method.
In a sense it could be a player having control over his body and not being awkward or unbalanced at times.

He speaks about a compact stance and short steps. Imagine if his stance wasn't so compact or his steps so wide/long that he over runs the play instead of still being in his gaps.

Now imagine him on that cut block and maybe his motions aren't as compact or if hes not as balanced or his foot staggered a little bit wider or anything. Suddenly his knee takes more force.

Its an overly simplified statement but its simplified IMHO because if you try to add all the things that could be different it turns into a much longer article and also likely more confusing.

Its all about variables i suppose and there are plenty too many to name so In a sense you have to simplify it. I'm not saying its gospel but I do understand the point he was making in the grand scheme of things.


If I can find the quote at one point SP talked about Anthony playing under control and they were working on those things with him. Some guys can naturally play under control and have that control over their body's. Some guys aren't naturally comfortable with their own athleticism...if i can put it in those terms. I think of my little cousin who is maybe 6'2 but had no control over his body and was terrible at basketball. Its hard to explain i guess..IDK.

Its why most of my thoughts stay in my head and this was really one of them until I came across this article so it just shows me that at least one person agrees or has similar thoughts so i don't/didn't feel crazy about it any longer.
 

LoE

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Surprised this thread is catching so much flak. The original point is a no-brainer.

Haiku of the day.

Perhaps we're just "bored"
Debating obvious points
On a football "board"
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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Surprised this thread is catching so much flak. The original point is a no-brainer.

Haiku of the day.

Perhaps we're just "bored"
Debating obvious points
On a football "board"
And yet interesting enough...depending on who is reading/looking at it it makes little to no sense and yet to you its a no brainer. That POV thing I was speaking on. Even to me it didn't seem as something that was "obvious" and it took me reading this article to say oh...ok that really does make sense instead of being in my brain like...how to I express this or does it even make sense to anyone else but me.
 

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