I've Been Accused of being Liberal. Okay I'm laying my cards on the table (1 Viewer)

RebSaint

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EE Issues Thread [Self-Edited for Obvious Reasons]

You know who you are. Ante up. Let's see who the real "conservatives" are.

Issues:

Gun Control: See 2nd Amendment.
*Gay marriage/abortion: See 10th Amendment; and For limiting Gay marriage, perhaps see 14th amendment.
*Church and STate: See founding fathers--keep them separated.
*Taxes: When High, tax cuts are good, when low, keep them low. Tax subsidies to large corporations has to go. No more corporate welfare.
*Foreign Policy: Get out of Iraq--it's too expensive, and it's a guerrilla war. Let the Iraqis handle their business. I certainly don't support Pax Americana
*Education: Abolish Federal intervention; some funding is good, but abolish oversite.
Trade: I'm for free trade
Welfare: I think some social welfare is good and necessary; we need a social safety net, but not a hammock.
*Campaign Finance--Here I might be considered a bit liberal. Corporations and lobbyists are way too powerful; reign them in somehow.
Death Penalty--I think death is far too merciful a fate.
Social Security--I was actually for the Bush plan--making it more privatized would net a better return for workers' money.
*Energy--I might be construed as a liberal on this issue; nobody can sit here and tell me this country can't invest in some Manhattan project to get this country off the dependency of fossil fuels. It would have miraculous effects vis a vis middle east policy and making this country more entrepreneurial.
*Environment--I don't agree with the extremists, but I believe in common sense government protection of this nation's natural resources.
*Immigration--No more laws limiting immigration. Enforce the ones on the books. Building a fence won't help and would be a big waste of money.
*Civil Liberties--Sorry, giving carte blanche powers vis a vis the Patriot Act violates my true, conservative Lockean sensibilities. Giving an executive branch of government the power to snoop with no oversight is asking for trouble. I don't care if it's in the name of terrorism.

The (*) next to the issue is where I differ from the Republican Party. Notice on many issues it's where HE, and his party as strayed from real (tm) conservative values. There should be no "Child Left Behind," and inviting more government into religion just invites government where it shouldn't be--in people's bedrooms and churches. There should be no federal definition of marriage; it's a state issue.

The one time which I do think massive federal intervention was necessary his administration fell woefully short was Katrina. The only government which was able to respond adequetely was the feds. Things only got better when Bush finally, FINALLY sent in federal troops.

Ante up.

Anybody think I'm a liberal now?
 
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LSSpam

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Fun idea. Enjoyable to do whether anyone nessecarily cares or not.

Gun Control: See 2nd Amendment.

Gay marriage: Marriage is a legal institution that affects legal status, taxes, insurance, etc. Churches can feel free to recognize whatever they want as "marriage under God" as they please. Federal government shouldn't make legal distinction between partners.

Abortion: Not a well-developed stance. You aren't required to run into a burning building to save even your own childern, so if the woman is in danger, hard to ask her to carry the child. You are required to feed, cloth, and care for your childern though, so arguements of "right to your body" don't seem to hold water. Suppose it depends on when a fetus is human, which I can't answer.

Church and STate: Seperate.

Taxes: Like progressive taxes. Feel though that ultimately, taxpayers spend money better then the government. Someone's got to pay the bill though.

Foreign Policy: Real Politika. Disagreed with Iraq on that principal. Felt it wasn't in our naked self-interest, for self-defense nor influence. Nations don't have friends, sole exception should be US/England.

Education: Broken. No clue how to fix it. Strongly suspect standardized tests aren't the answer though.

Trade: Free Trade all the way

Welfare: Believe in employment programs, not much else.

Campaign Finance: Don't think money has a significant affect on who wins in politics. Check Freakonomics, nice chapter on it there. Unfourtantly politicians think it does, so it's a moot point. Needs to be reigned in.

Death Penalty: Would be all for it if you could convince me it's a deterrent. Don't believe it is, therefore I consider it to be, in most cases (but not all) too permenant a punishment. I'm under no illusions that the legal system is perfect.

Social Security: Not sure honestly. I think perhaps it should be moved more underneath the employer/employee umbrella.

Energy: It's a national secruity issue at this point. Don't see how there isn't absoloute agreement about this. Energy is a resource that we need to be as close to self-suffecient with as possible.

Environment: Self interest. Not overly concerned with any specific species of trout, and wouldn't want to save a barely different one at the cost of peoples well-being, but obviously we over-fish, pollute waters/air, and struggle with a number of other enviromental issues which directly affect the same well-being I mentioned above.

Immigration: Border secruity is paramount. By and large, i'm pro-immigration though I guess. I'm more concerned with making sure all immigrants are legal, paying taxes, can be tracked down, and have legal protections.

Civil Liberties: This is why America exists as an idea as well as a country. Any chipping away at this destroys our purpose in being.


Overall stance - Less government. Both in terms of taxes and programs, also in terms of being involved in matters like who you can marry and who you talk too.
 

Saintman2884

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REb, your beliefs sound a bit like John Staurt Mills ideas on democracy, philosophy, and democratic beliefs. Your a bit more like Mills then lets say Bentham In my view. You see the way we look at liberals and conservatives has changed a lot since the 19th century, a liberal in the late 19th century is a Republian today, the radical of the 1960's is probably a liberal today in the high volatile world of politics today. I dont think the word liberal today gets the right meaning these days, Reb, a lot of the anti-war anti-establishment counterculture people of the 1960's there seen in the Dems today, its evident to me as an observer, I dont think I fall into that criteria, quite frankly. I think the 60's generation had good intentions they just let their passions get the better of them and the idealism turned into corruption. Take the 1970's and 80's for example Reb, the 60's had passed and the Dems had a lot of power in the Senate and in congress. Okay good, what did they do with it? They abused it in the same way the people thye hated did a generation before them. Its like they became the very exact same people they hated. You know, thats the thing, you can have good intentions but still not get across the full effect of what you want to happen.
The same bodes for the Reps too, they embraced some of the old Dixiecrats mottos and ideas in taking over the South like Nixon for example.
What started out being a good thing for everybody turned into corruption and mor partisan ship for both parties.
Just my view of course
 

Saintshizzle

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What's wrong with being Liberal? Everyone have conservative, moderate and liberal values...depending on the topic at-hand.

Reb, don't let them make you feel like being a liberal is a bad thing. That's the ploy within itself. Man, I hate that you had to spew a spread like that to try and defend yourself. guys like me in the Military do what we do so that you can be what you want to be.

Besides social security...we run lock-step.
 
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You know who you are. Ante up. Let's see who the real "conservatives" are.

Issues:

Gun Control: See 2nd Amendment.
*Gay marriage/abortion: See 10th Amendment; and For limiting Gay marriage, perhaps see 14th amendment.
*Church and STate: See founding fathers--keep them separated.
*Taxes: When High, tax cuts are good, when low, keep them low. Tax subsidies to large corporations has to go. No more corporate welfare.
*Foreign Policy: Get out of Iraq--it's too expensive, and it's a guerrilla war. Let the Iraqis handle their business. I certainly don't support Pax Americana
*Education: Abolish Federal intervention; some funding is good, but abolish oversite.
Trade: I'm for free trade
Welfare: I think some social welfare is good and necessary; we need a social safety net, but not a hammock.
*Campaign Finance--Here I might be considered a bit liberal. Corporations and lobbyists are way too powerful; reign them in somehow.
Death Penalty--I think death is far too merciful a fate.
Social Security--I was actually for the Bush plan--making it more privatized would net a better return for workers' money.
*Energy--I might be construed as a liberal on this issue; nobody can sit here and tell me this country can't invest in some Manhattan project to get this country off the dependency of fossil fuels. It would have miraculous effects vis a vis middle east policy and making this country more entrepreneurial.
*Environment--I don't agree with the extremists, but I believe in common sense government protection of this nation's natural resources.
*Immigration--No more laws limiting immigration. Enforce the ones on the books. Building a fence won't help and would be a big waste of money.
*Civil Liberties--Sorry, giving carte blanche powers vis a vis the Patriot Act violates my true, conservative Lockean sensibilities. Giving an executive branch of government the power to snoop with no oversight is asking for trouble. I don't care if it's in the name of terrorism.

The (*) next to the issue is where I differ from the Republican Party. Notice on many issues it's where HE, and his party as strayed from real (tm) conservative values. There should be no "Child Left Behind," and inviting more government into religion just invites government where it shouldn't be--in people's bedrooms and churches. There should be no federal definition of marriage; it's a state issue.

The one time which I do think massive federal intervention was necessary his administration fell woefully short was Katrina. The only government which was able to respond adequetely was the feds. Things only got better when Bush finally, FINALLY sent in federal troops.

Ante up.

Anybody think I'm a liberal now?
1 I support the 2nd ammendment.

2 As a conservative I agree with banning same sex marriages. Mainly because if children are involved I see it as child abuse.

3 Seperation of church and state is a constitutional issue that I agree with for the most part.

4 Taxes. I believe in tax cuts for everyone. The dems see a taxcut as only helping the rich.
Tax cuts help everyone because they improve the economy.
I agree with you about corporate taxes.

5 I totally disagree with you about Iraq and the WOT. This the most important issue facing this country today. The survival of the US depends on us winning this war. I hope and pray the dems realize this fact.

6 totally agree with you on education. ditto for free trade, and welfare.

7 Campaign finance reform is needed. However, both political parties will never agree on how it should be done.

8 Agree with you the death penalty, esp for terrorists. Also agree with privatizing SS. Unfortunately, the liberals had a fit.


I agree with you up to the civil liberties (patriot act).
The PA is necessary for the survival of this country.
Even honest Abe suspended habeus corpus.

I think you'r about a 25% lib. Unfortunately your rhetoric comes off a bit strong.

C
 
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RebSaint

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What's wrong with being Liberal? Everyone have conservative, moderate and liberal values...depending on the topic at-hand.

Reb, don't let them make you feel like being a liberal is a bad thing. That's the ploy within itself. Man, I hate that you had to spew a spread like that to try and defend yourself. guys like me in the Military do what we do so that you can be what you want to be.

Besides social security...we run lock-step.
Oho, that thread was fun. I don't take these things personal. I get my nose out of joint, but it's never really personal.

It goes without saying about the terms "liberal" and "conservative" 2884 is almost spot on with his John Stuart Mills analogy. Another poster who shall be rendered nameless gets the same label.

Want to read what a real conservative thinks about the modern Republican Party? Read some of Barry Goldwater's comments.

And when it gets right down to it, I'm a Lockean at heart. I don't trust any concentrated authoritarian power. At all.
 

Saintman2884

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Well shizzle, the thing that most people see in the meaning of the word liberal is that its to close to the word communism or socialism, or the kind we saw in Soviet Russia and china under Moa. thats the perception some people get with the word and term liberal, America is very at the most principles very libertarian, where you get the problems is that it was made by very what I call conservative men who were very knowing of its contradictions. Take Jefferson for example, Shizzle, he said all men are created equal in the DOI, and yet he owned slaves ,as well as many other Founding Fathers, thats the biggest thing they get in their legacies, they didnt go far enough in slavery and ending it, and when they didnt, bad things usually happened like the Civil War and Segregation after it.

Jefferson may have been a great man of law and equality, but as a man who studies history, he failed on the slavery issue, big time as as matter of fact.
he knew it probably, he knew what it mgiht do later on down the road but ignored it.
Big way to look at the how the Constitution is looked at isnt it?
 
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RebSaint

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Well shizzle, the thing that most people see in the meaning of the word liberal is that its to close to the word communism or socialism, or the kind we saw in Soviet Russia and china under Moa. thats the perception some people get with the word and term liberal, America is very at the most principles very libertarian, where you get the problems is that it was made by very what I call conservative men who were very knowing of its contradictions. Take Jefferson for example, Shizzle, he said all men are created equal in the DOI, and yet he owned slaves ,as well as many other Founding Fathers, thats the biggest thing they get in their legacies, they didnt go far enough in slavery and ending it, and when they didnt, bad things usually happened like the Civil War and Segregation after it.

Jefferson may have been a great man of law and equality, but as a man who studies history, he failed on the slavery issue, big time as as matter of fact.
he knew it probably, he knew what it mgiht do later on down the road but ignored it.
Big way to look at the how the Constitution is looked at isnt it?

Great points, 2884. On the latter point, though it's a bit much to expect Jefferson to be an abolitionist given the time he lived.

Point: This here is a sight better than implicitly or overtly categorizing one party or the other as being in bed with Al-Queda.

What's missing from political discourse right now is just that--political discourse. A real discussion of the issues vis a vis the Constitution, history, the "general will," etc.
 

Saintshizzle

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2884, society runs on a Social Capital framework (That term has nothing to do with socialism or Capitalism...it means two items working together with reciprocity). A capitalist society cannot stand without some socialist agendas...and vice-versa. Paul mention the Tax cuts, so I will use that as an example. I do not agree with the Tax cuts for the richest of the rich, because the people who recieve the money are not doing what's needed to have the Trickle-Down Effect, which is the lobbied outcome.

But, if they were to take that money, invest it into their business to expand jobs (good jobs for the middle class etc...) then we could all feel the relief. The problem is that they invest in the stock market, which benefits those that are already moving up to accelerte and those that are not solidly in the middle class to fall.
 

TPS

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Tried this before. Forget name calling. I'd rather people rememberd me for being the Conservanazi I am. I want to curtail rights for everyone!

TPS
 

Richard

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You know who you are. Ante up. Let's see who the real "conservatives" are.

Issues:

Gun Control: See 2nd Amendment.
*Gay marriage/abortion: See 10th Amendment; and For limiting Gay marriage, perhaps see 14th amendment.
*Church and STate: See founding fathers--keep them separated.
*Taxes: When High, tax cuts are good, when low, keep them low. Tax subsidies to large corporations has to go. No more corporate welfare.
*Foreign Policy: Get out of Iraq--it's too expensive, and it's a guerrilla war. Let the Iraqis handle their business. I certainly don't support Pax Americana
*Education: Abolish Federal intervention; some funding is good, but abolish oversite.
Trade: I'm for free trade
Welfare: I think some social welfare is good and necessary; we need a social safety net, but not a hammock.
*Campaign Finance--Here I might be considered a bit liberal. Corporations and lobbyists are way too powerful; reign them in somehow.
Death Penalty--I think death is far too merciful a fate.
Social Security--I was actually for the Bush plan--making it more privatized would net a better return for workers' money.
*Energy--I might be construed as a liberal on this issue; nobody can sit here and tell me this country can't invest in some Manhattan project to get this country off the dependency of fossil fuels. It would have miraculous effects vis a vis middle east policy and making this country more entrepreneurial.
*Environment--I don't agree with the extremists, but I believe in common sense government protection of this nation's natural resources.
*Immigration--No more laws limiting immigration. Enforce the ones on the books. Building a fence won't help and would be a big waste of money.
*Civil Liberties--Sorry, giving carte blanche powers vis a vis the Patriot Act violates my true, conservative Lockean sensibilities. Giving an executive branch of government the power to snoop with no oversight is asking for trouble. I don't care if it's in the name of terrorism.

The (*) next to the issue is where I differ from the Republican Party. Notice on many issues it's where HE, and his party as strayed from real (tm) conservative values. There should be no "Child Left Behind," and inviting more government into religion just invites government where it shouldn't be--in people's bedrooms and churches. There should be no federal definition of marriage; it's a state issue.

The one time which I do think massive federal intervention was necessary his administration fell woefully short was Katrina. The only government which was able to respond adequetely was the feds. Things only got better when Bush finally, FINALLY sent in federal troops.

Ante up.

Anybody think I'm a liberal now?
Yeah, I think you are a pinko commie!! You have a picture of Ted Kennedy on your mantle and you spend all of your free time on Democratic Underground and Dail Kos. :ezbill:

Actually, it was a bit scary reading your list and LSSpam's and seeing how close I thought to both of you. As LS said, it's kind of fun to do whether anyone else cares what we think or not. So here goes.

Gun control -- I don't own a gun because I don't hunt and I'm a bad*** without one :D j/k Seriously, private ownership of assault weapons is silly, but beyond that, I have no problem with people owning them. I also have no problem with registering ownership.

Gay marriage -- We differ here. It is a state issue, but the campaign to expand it is national and I strongly oppose it on many levels. My friend Taurus once challenged people to argue against homosexuality based on something other than religious beliefs. I agree with that stance, BTW. In that same vein, I would challenge people to argue in favor of gay marriage without the government granting a special privilege for a class of people based solely on a behavior.

Abortion -- For years, I believed only women should discuss this, since as men, we would never be faced with the decision. Faulty logic. I disagree with abortion on demand for many reasons, but I also believe the states should determine its availability without a contrived "constitutional right" being applied.

Church and State -- Absolutely and irrevocably must remain seperate. However, I think people are generally ill-focused on this. There is a freedom OF religion in this country, not freedom FROM religion. Believe what you want, believe nothing at all, but keep it out of government and keep government out of it. Churches should not be given tax-free status unless they can prove they serve a tangible community service that would qualify them as it would any other non-profit organization.

Taxes -- I agree totally with what RebSaint said. I will only add that I find it incredible that the American public is so apathetic toward the most oppressive (and in some cases improper) taxes, while often aggressively voting against bond issues (which are really taxes) that would help individual communities.

Foreign policy -- I could go on and on with this one. The issues are too complex and varied to give a simple pat answer to all of the relevant questions. The main focus now is Iraq and the War on Terror, so I'll just say that if we as a nation decide to engage an enemy militarily, the world should know that we will win. Totally commit, win decisively, help the remaining people rebuild, but let them make their own decisions about how they will proceed. Leaders will emerge. If they decide to be our friends, as Germany and Japan did after WWII, great. If they want to remain an enemy unfortunately, they will be deciding to get the same thing again.

Education -- I agree with both RebSaint and LSSpam. I also want to say that I deal with educated people from other countries regularly. Our educational system (including our colleges) is so bogged down in regulation and federal intervention taht our mission is lost. Let's prepare people for their futures, not worry about whether they got enough credits in particular subject areas. High school should be where our kids get there "well-rounded education." Colleges should be about immersion in a chosen field.

Trade -- Free trade with a caveat. Yes, we should probably have some less than favorable trade agreements with developing nations, because in theory, it serves our interests. However, unilateral free trade is wrong. For example, if China has relatively unencumbered access to our markets, the same should be true for our products in China. If they don't like that fair arrangement, let China sell their goods in another market.

Welfare -- Having worked in state government for the Department of Human Services, I can say that this is a complete and utter failure. I believe there should be some food assistance available, but not to the degree it is now. It basically now provides a mechanism for many to remain in a lifestyle of dependence. People in a lifestyle of dependence on government get their food from food stamps, a TANF check for dependent children, subsidized housing, earned income credits, Medicaid, WIC and utility subsidies. There is a disincentive to change one's circumstances. There is value to each of these programs when used judiciously, but I believe that quality education and work programs are probably the only way out of this mess.

Campaign finance -- The campaign finance reform passed earlier this decade is a joke. I would like to see less influence by lobbyists and corporations, but the loopholes in the reform bill are too great. The money still flows from the same sources to the same people.

Death penalty -- Agree with LSSpam

Social Security -- Agree with RebSaint

Energy -- Totally agree again with RebSaint. There are actually technologies that exist that could make us energy independent if we are willing to commit to them.

Environment -- Agree with RebSaint. I also agree with not signing teh Kyoto treaty, a thouroughly ridiculous document.

Immigration -- In my mind it is simple. Make legal immigration easier, make illegal immigration more difficult and enforced. There are likely between 5,000 and 7,500 Hispanic people here in my county of 75,000. Liberal (sorry to use that word) estimates by legal Hispanics are that over 90 per cent of them are illegal. There are no repercussions for either the illegals or the companies that hire them and until there is immigration enforcement, there will be no change.

Civil Liberties -- Foundational to our existence as a nation.

Sorry to ramble on so long, but it could have been much worse. I considered all of these answers to be the condensed version. :ezbill:
 

Cajun Mike

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2884, society runs on a Social Capital framework (That term has nothing to do with socialism or Capitalism...it means two items working together with reciprocity). A capitalist society cannot stand without some socialist agendas...and vice-versa. Paul mention the Tax cuts, so I will use that as an example. I do not agree with the Tax cuts for the richest of the rich, because the people who recieve the money are not doing what's needed to have the Trickle-Down Effect, which is the lobbied outcome.

But, if they were to take that money, invest it into their business to expand jobs (good jobs for the middle class etc...) then we could all feel the relief. The problem is that they invest in the stock market, which benefits those that are already moving up to accelerte and those that are not solidly in the middle class to fall.
agreed, put in large corporations too, they are too interested in the stock holders and not investing back in technology and employees. and certainly weasel out of taxes.
 

City Champ

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Issues:

*Gun Control: no one needs to own an assault rifle. handguns and hunting rifles are fine by me.

*Gay marriage: I could care less if gay folks want to get married, as long as it isnt in the catholic church. personally i think the solution is to strip any tax benefits from married couples and treat us all as equal individuals.

*abortion: im pro life.

*Church and STate: keep them separated. faith based initiatives are bad bad news. as soon as the gubment funds a faith based initiative, that initiative is tied to that funding and easily manipulated by said gubment.

*Taxes: i hate taxes, but i hate corporate tax breaks even more. lets all play on an even playing field and initiate the flat tax, or a sales tax on non consumables for personal use. i have no problem tying in sin taxes to that as well (and i smoke like a chimney and enjoy the occasional beverage). if a corporation is entitled to every right as a citizen, save voting in public elections, they should be taxed in the same damn manner.

*Foreign Policy: this one is tough. i dont think we should have ever came to iraq, but now that we are here, we must finish the job.

*Education: give cash to the states and let them run education.

*Trade: tarrifs on countries that place tarrifs on our exports, and free trade with those that dont.

*Welfare: complete reform with additional funding. we must ween people off of welfare, and create a payment system, via cash or volunteer efforts in the community, to repay what was given. education goals should be tied to every welfare recipient, either through themselves and or their children.

*Campaign Finance--demand the broadcast companies give free and equal airtime to every candidate. limit campaign contributions to 100 per citizen and corporation.

*Death Penalty--im against the death penalty. it isnt a deterrant.

*Social Security--i will probably never see it but...forgive me, but i just dont trust american companies with that much money. i have no solution...

*Energy--get off of oil, or start uncapping the wells we have in our own back yard.

*Environment--we need a common sense balance with a plan to replenish natural resources.

*Immigration--stop worrying about mexico and concentrate on the canadian borders. thats where the terrorists cross.

*Civil Liberties--gubment, leave me alone please...patriot act is bad news.

i consider myself a constitutional conservative. if it were up to me, i would strip the majority of the powers from the feds and ask them to concentrate on a few simple things. gubment, keep the infrastructure sound. that includes highways, digital and traditional, as well as power grids. gubment, protect me from enemies foreign and domestic. gubment, use the FDA to keep bad stuff out of the medicine cabinet...

give all the power to the states. we pride ourselves on capitalism right? why dont we apply the same principles to our governing system? dispurse tax dollars according to population and land mass. if a state is doing a great job with health care, business development, and education, chances are businesses and people will flock there...
let the market work...
 
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