I've never said it before, but I think it's time... (1 Viewer)

BoNcHiE

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This isn't another hair on fire Payton thread calling him a bum who should be run out of town. Payton is the best coach we've ever had and I don't think half of the issues we have this year are directly his fault. So if you want to bash him, take it to one of the other all caps, screaming threads.

But, after thinking about it, I just don't think Payton and most of his staff are the right way forward.

No, you don't fire him. You don't shame him. You don't do anything until the season is over. He deserves that much from us. He's not even 1 year into a 5 year extension so the only way anything could happen is if we deal directly with another team to take him on (almost like a trade but probably with no compensation to us).

Payton would likely go to another team and have success, but you can't quantify that with him being here. Coaches and teams just grow stale eventually and no matter what you do, more often then not historically, things do not rebound. There are exceptions, but they are far and few between

Stepping into the unknown is scary. There's no guarantee we won't suck for the next 30 years, but at some point you have to take the chance. I'd hope that Brees would be willing to give it a few more years under new leadership and coaching. Peyton M. was willing to do that and it paid dividends.

I do think you can keep most of the offensive staff. Pete, the WR coach, and I think the OL coach has proven his worth big time given what he's had to work with. Doing so might be enough to keep Brees around until he retires and it'd be worth it.

I would not make Pete Carmichael HC though. We need a fresh voice in here and likely a defensive specialist.

Doing this wouldn't constitute starting over the rebuild we've already started. We'll still have good talent next season (assuming they aren't all injured again). We'll still have a big chunk of cap space. Even with a new coach, I think we could compete for the playoffs next year if we make the right moves. The other thing is, if you wait until Brees retires and this team has gone further downhill, the job itself will be much less alluring and we'd likely not end up with our choice of coaches.

I honestly thought about not hitting submit on this after typing it up, but I don't feel I'm being over emotional or the like. Taking everything into account, I think this is the right move to get us back to competing sooner rather then later. Or it could totally blow up in our face, but what we've done the last three years isn't working, so I'm ready to take the chance.
 

Swimmer

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This isn't another hair on fire Payton thread calling him a bum who should be run out of town. Payton is the best coach we've ever had and I don't think half of the issues we have this year are directly his fault.

But, after thinking about it, I just don't think Payton and most of his staff are the right way forward.

No, you don't fire him. You don't shame him. You don't do anything until the season is over. He deserves that much from us. He's not even 1 year into a 5 year extension so the only way anything could happen is if we deal directly with another team to take him on (almost like a trade but probably with no compensation to us).

Payton would likely go to another team and have success, but you can't quantify that with him being here. Coaches and teams just grow stale eventually and no matter what you do, more often then not historically, things do not rebound. There are exceptions, but they are far and few between

Stepping into the unknown is scary. There's no guarantee we won't suck for the next 30 years, but at some point you have to take the chance. I'd hope that Brees would be willing to give it a few more years under new leadership and coaching. Peyton M. was willing to do that and it paid dividends.

I do think you can keep most of the offensive staff. Pete, the WR coach, and I think the OL coach has proven his worth big time given what he's had to work with. Doing so might be enough to keep Brees around until he retires and it'd be worth it.

I would not make Pete Carmichael HC though. We need a fresh voice in here and likely a defensive specialist.

Doing this wouldn't constitute starting over the rebuild we've already started. We'll still have good talent next season (assuming they aren't all injured again). We'll still have a big chunk of cap space. Even with a new coach, I think we could compete for the playoffs next year if we make the right moves. The other thing is, if you wait until Brees retires and this team has gone further downhill, the job itself will be much less alluring and we'd likely not end up with our choice of coaches.

I honestly thought about no hitting submit on this, but I don't feel I'm being over emotional or the like. Taking everything into account, I think this is the right move to get us back to competing sooner rather then later.
This had to be a painful thread for you to write Bonchie. You have been so strong in trying to find positives in this team. I deeply respect your analysis. And I agree with you, sometimes leadership grows stale. I still would like to keep SP and bring a real GM with player personnel background who is SPs boss and can clean-out the Good Ole Boy SP buddy coaches. But I ddn't know if SP could handle being #2. Whatever, good stuff and well written. thx
 

NMS

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I don't think its time yet. Greg McMahon, sure but look how many starters were out on defense last night. The offense still scored points. I'm actually encouraged by Sterling Moore and the fact we have some cap room. A new defensive coordinator with major pieces missing is going to have a negative impact. Many of these guys have just been thrown together. You can't expect that not to have a immediate impact on what you see out there.
 

Brock Compeaux

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I agree. And it is quite possible Sean could go to another team and have success. And it is also quite possible our next head coach could be a complete disaster but you don't stay in a bad marriage for fear of the unknown.
 

crawfish2010

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I approve of everything you said. In addition, I didn't think Payton should have received a contract extension. He was in the last year of his deal and after consecutive 7-9 season should have been on the hot seat in 2016.

I could see him coaching the Cowboys or Bengals.
 

DavidM

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I have a feeling that Payton is safe through next year. I think from Benson on down, there is probably some acceptance that the cap situation was something that they needed to work out of, and that has been seriously compounded by a lot of injuries that have made an already tough climb even tougher.

I think Payton gets another offseason to continue reshaping the roster and another season with Brees to swing for the fences. I think next year will determine where the team goes organizationally, and whether Payton and Brees are back after 2017.
 

dvdman

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The problem is Payton won't allow his buddies to be fired so we will continue to have the same issues. I honestly have seen the same mistakes
and missed assignments on defense under Allen as we saw under Rob Ryan.

QUOTE=NMS;6544905]I don't think its time yet. Greg McMahon, sure but look how many starters were out on defense last night. The offense still scored points. I'm actually encouraged by Sterling Moore and the fact we have some cap room. A new defensive coordinator with major pieces missing is going to have a negative impact. Many of these guys have just been thrown together. You can't expect that not to have a immediate impact on what you see out there.[/QUOTE]
 

natedog

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I don't know what the right moves are, but something needs to happen. This is a poorly coached team, its going into week four and we are auditioning Tommy Lee Lewis ? . . . We should have a solid Offensive attack now, with new exciting plays making use of all the weapons have. Instead it is just the same old boring offense. I did like that we were finally going to Thomas with a slant pass and the draw play was new too, I liked that. But the week before looked like we just went to NY to lose, nine carries to our running backs in a close game, with a defense that is having a hard time.

It just seems that we have totally lost the "Saints" identity under Payton, everyone other than Brees seem to be mailing it in. Maybe the team realizes we are rebuilding for next year too. I am willing to give Payton another try, but lets start blitzes on defense, or throwing more deep passes on Offense, just something to mix up the short passing attack that is ending up in way too many dropped balls. . . I digress, argh.

There is nothing worse then watching the Opposing Offense just have there way with the short passing game, we were killed by this last year and he it is happening again. Greg Williams new what to do with a weak defense, he gambled, sure it cost us in the end, but it paid off more then the plan last night. That was just a slow death and Payton lets it happen.
 

blackadder

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I agree. And it is quite possible Sean could go to another team and have success. And it is also quite possible our next head coach could be a complete disaster but you don't stay in a bad marriage for fear of the unknown.
If he took a job somewhere with a strong organization in place and a defense and personnel decisions pre-sorted, with a better than average QB option and his role is defined then he could definitely hit the ground running and have success focusing on what he does best.

Just a matter of if he gets to a place where that's what he would want. If it were me at this point I'd be praying for someone to come in and sort out my defense and drafts and FA and free me to call plays and manage in game. It's all too much and reminds me of what happened to Mora at the end after Finks died and Benson did not bring in anyone to fill the void.
 

bradman1965

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I'm not even sure how anybody gets fired with placeholder ownership? Benson won't fire Mickey, if Mickey is so ineffectual he's going to fire Payton and admit he was wrong for the umpteenth time in decision making? I guess so. Firing guys doesn't solve your problem if you can't get back to organizational coherence.
 

DavidM

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The problem is Payton won't allow his buddies to be fired so we will continue to have the same issues.
There have been a number of coaches the team has parted with, going back to Gary Gibbs. It's fan folklore that some of the coaches must only still be around because they are Payton's "buddies". I'm not defending any of them individually, and I have my own reservations about some of the results under their guidance, but I also understand, as fans, we are in on so little of what actually goes on in the facility and with the team.

There are 32 NFL head coaching jobs - I've got to think that Payton doesn't knowingly self-sabotage his own career out of loyalty to coaches he otherwise thinks are incompetent, but that he personally likes. We might not all agree with his staffing choices, but I think it's silly to think he's more interested in running a treehouse club than he is in achieving success and solidifying his own career and legacy.
 

blackadder

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I'm not even sure how anybody gets fired with placeholder ownership? Benson won't fire Mickey, if Mickey is so ineffectual he's going to fire Payton and admit he was wrong for the umpteenth time in decision making? I guess so. Firing guys doesn't solve your problem if you can't get back to organizational coherence.
Good question, which needs to be sorted for the longer term.

Who is going to be the steady hand in this organization that keeps accountability?

Who will Loomis and Payton answer to? There seems to be a void and that's not good.
 

blackadder

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There have been a number of coaches the team has parted with, going back to Gary Gibbs. It's fan folklore that some of the coaches must only still be around because they are Payton's "buddies". I'm not defending any of them individually, and I have my own reservations about some of the results under their guidance, but I also understand, as fans, we are in on so little of what actually goes on in the facility and with the team.

There are 32 NFL head coaching jobs - I've got to think that Payton doesn't knowingly self-sabotage his own career out of loyalty to coaches he otherwise thinks are incompetent, but that he personally likes. We might not all agree with his staffing choices, but I think it's silly to think he's more interested in running a treehouse club than he is in achieving success and solidifying his own career and legacy.
And yet...

McMahon.
 

Rdanderson91

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We need a defensive head coach while keeping Charmichael as OC. I think he does a decent job. Payton gets too tricky and cute.
 

los226

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I've been saying this since last season. I love Sean Payton and I know he will have a playoff caliber team wherever he ends up, but it's time for major change. It's better for both parties involved.
 

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