I've said it before, and I'll say it again (1 Viewer)

He can't start fresh though. The fact is what really needs to happen is he needs a coach to come in and break him down and build him back up again. But he can't go back to being a rookie for 1 or 2 seasons. Again, it's part of all of the "baggage" that surrounds him. He's in an untenable position.

I don't think it's inherently the WCO that's the problem (they don't really borrow anything philosophically from the WCO this year. In fact, they don't seem to have ANY coherent offensive philosophy at all).

I DO think if he grew up within a real system, he would be much more succesful. Instead Dan Reeves, in the twlight of his career, rather then suffering growing pains with Vick having to depress part of his game (running around) in order to develop at a slower pace other parts of his game (distributing the ball, setting things up, etc), he just let Vick run around like he was in college still.

Then Mora came in and didn't have the slightest clue what he was doing (3-4 defense, oops no it's the 4-3. WCO offense, no we'll run the shotgun zone-read option, no maybe we're an I formation team...), it's just a disaster. At this point Vick should be competeing for a Super Bowl, instead he still doesn't have a clear idea what it means to be a QB.

Brees is the best demonstration of this. Look, sometimes, being a QB, it isn't chucking it to Plaxico Burress every play and hoping one of the passes stick or running 20 yards, even if those result in big plays. Sometimes it's getting Terrence Copper involved or checking down to Ernie Conwell, even if you leave potentially bigger gains out on the field on any given play. Because football isn't one play, it isn't even one game, and a QB has to think bigger picture then any other player. (think Steve Nash vs Stephon Maybury) And Vick just doesn't "get it".

I think that much like T.O., there is some baggage there, but not nearly as much as people seem to think. Vick at least is a competitor. He played his butt off yesterday and his team let him down.

As far as the Brees comparison, you're comparing Vick to possibly the smartest QB in football. I have never seen a QB distribute like Brees is doing this year. He is unreal. But there are things that Vick can do that Brees can't. Brees can't make a defense pay for edge rushing too hard by breaking off a 20 yard scramble up the middle. Brees can't roll out on a bootleg and throw a frozen rope 40 yards downfield.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Had Vick's receivers actually done their job, his total yardage would have been right there with Drew's.

And I totally agree with you regarding his coaching. I just don't think he's too far gone to be a huge success like you do.
 
And you act like being a non-traditional pocket passer and being an intelligent field general are mutually exclusive. I'd take McNabb, McNair in his prime, or Vince Young in a year or two over every QB in the league save Brees, Manning, and _maybe_ Carson Palmer.


Not speaking for David Robbins, but "hating" on Vick isn't mutually exclusive with appreciating QBs with mobility. Vick isn't just a "moble QB". Mobile QBs are old news. They've been around forever. In fact they ALL used to be mobile until the forward pass crept into the game ;) But I mean lots of people can appreciate Fran Tarkenton, Steve Young, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb, and dislike Vick.

The problem is the 4 I listed besides Vick (and the 3 you listed) all happen to be QBs first. They run as a last resort. The benefit of a "mobile QB" is they can bail you out when everything turns to crap. When a play looks like a disaster, when things break down, QBs with speed can turn out a miracle. That's the benefit of them.

But relying on broken plays isn't a strategy, and watching Vick is basically watching that. It's broken play after broken play. Sometimes he gets 38 yards. Sometimes he gets sacked (he's consistently been one of the most sacked QBs in the NFL, except for last season when he was in a pocket WCO). I mean you look at the Falcons offensive problems

Negative plays which kill drives (sacks, interceptions, fumbles)
Trouble in the red zone
Inability to come from behind

All partially Vicks responsibility. He has TONS of negative plays. QBs are less effective running in the cramped red zone (we saw that). And he can't consistently break big running plays enough to, on demand, produce a 4th quarter drive.


I'd take McNabb over a lot of people, but because he's a damn good deep passer, not because he can run if the offensive line breaks down.
 
No argument here Vick would be a great QB if he would just throw the ball and stop running around.


Vick and great QB should never be used together...

and as far as people blaming it on his recievers..maybe they are just not use to having the ball thrown to them...because he thinks he can do it all by himself....i love seeing him fail : )

and yea they did drop some easy ones but what about those deep balls that were not even close
 
Sometimes he gets sacked (he's consistently been one of the most sacked QBs in the NFL, except for last season when he was in a pocket WCO).

Vick was sacked 33 times last season - one of the higher numbers in the league.
 
As far as the Brees comparison, you're comparing Vick to possibly the smartest QB in football. I have never seen a QB distribute like Brees is doing this year. He is unreal. But there are things that Vick can do that Brees can't. Brees can't make a defense pay for edge rushing too hard by breaking off a 20 yard scramble up the middle. Brees can't roll out on a bootleg and throw a frozen rope 40 yards downfield.


The difference is Brees ability to distribute the ball can be consistently counted on, Vick producing a 40 yard run can't. QB position has to be the model of consistency. As mentioned in my above post, an "edge of disaster" strategy that seems to be Vicks forte, just isn't much of a strategy. Give me 65% completion percentage any day.


BTW I think Vick WILL be a success. It'll just be when he's 30, after Atlanta has released him, and he flies a little lower under the radar to some other team that really wants him because they know what they're going to do with him, and he essentially "ressurrects" his career as a slower, less exciting, MUCH better QB ala Randall Cunningham with Minnesota (but longer. Cunningham had only like 2 seasons)
 
The thing about Randall, though, is that he was 6'3" 220 and had success passing the ball before... heck, in 1990 he did BOTH well. It's so unfortunate that the Giants, Redskins, and 49ers were so strong back in those days. It's like everyone else was playing for fourth-best.

1987 phi | 12 | 223 406 54.9 2786 6.9 23 12 | 76 505 3
1990 phi | 16 | 271 465 58.3 3466 7.5 30 13 | 118 942 5
1992 phi | 15 | 233 384 60.7 2775 7.2 19 11 | 87 549 5

Randall's 3 best seasons (3rd, 6th, and 8th seasons in the league).
 
I didn't start this thread as an "I told you so." I started it because I've been saying all along that Vick wasn't an NFL QB, and yesterday he proved it.



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Compares drops to pass attempts

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=542 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">Rank
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Team
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Drops
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">Attempts
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">% drops
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">|Rank
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Team
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Drops:
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Attempts
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">% drops
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
1​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Phi
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
30​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
395​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
7.59%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
17​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Car
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
16:​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
368​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
4.35%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
2​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">GB
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
27​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
383​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
7.05%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
18​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">KC
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
13​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
301​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
4.32%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
3​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Sea
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
20​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
300​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
6.67%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
19​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Dal
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
15​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
349​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
4.30%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
4​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Jac
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
20​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
310​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
6.45%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
20​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Min
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
16​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
384​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
4.17%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
5​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Mia
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
24​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
419​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
5.73%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
21​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Pit
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
14:​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
387​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
3.62%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
6​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">TB
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
20​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
365​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
5.48%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
22​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">NYJ
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
13​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
363​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
3.58%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
7​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">NE
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
20​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
367​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
5.45%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
23​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Den
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
11​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
315​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
3.49%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
8​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Cle
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
18​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
345​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
5.22%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
24​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Bal
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
12:​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
362​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
3.31%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
9​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Atl
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
15​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
293​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
5.12%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
25​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">SD
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
11​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
335​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
3.28%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
10​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">NO
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
21​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
415​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
5.06%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
26​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Hou
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
12​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
378​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
3.17%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
11​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">NYG
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
16​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
319​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
5.02%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
27​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Det
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
10​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
404​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
2.48%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
12​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Ari
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
19​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
394​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
4.82%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
28​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Buf
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
7​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
291​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
2.41%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
13​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Oak
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
14​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
300​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
4.67%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
29​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Cin
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
8​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
356​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
2.25%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
14​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Ten
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
15​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
322​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
4.66%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
30​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">Chi
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
7​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
355​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
1.97%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
15​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Ind
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
17​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
379​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
4.49%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
31​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">SF
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
6​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
317​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
1.89%​
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom width="8%">
16​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">Was
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="9%">
14​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="12%">
318​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
4.40%​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
32​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">StL
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
7​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
401​
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="10%">
1.75%​
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 
Last edited:
Ok, first off let me say that I hate Vick. Not because of the hype he gets but because he is the QB for Atlanta.

You can dog him all you want but Vick was the only Falcon who showed up to play Sunday. He did everything he needed to do to beat us (passing and running) but the rest of his team failed him. Normally I would never say ANYTHING positive about Vick but this past Sunday he played his a$$ off, I have to give him that. Now go back to the game and if his receivers/TE catch the balls they are supposed to catch then its a whole different ball game.

Now I am glad his receivers suck and they dropped all those balls. I am glad we kicked their ***. I am glad we made their fans boo their own team so badly and glad Vick lost it and flipped them off, but you have to give it up for Vick for the way he played. Like I said... he did everything he needed to do.
 
Trying to bring some more stats into this discussion. I think Vick's problem is that he is not an accurate passer. I grabbed some stats from stats.com that show this.

Here are combined %'s of bad passes/passes defensed for these QB's to date in 2006:
Vick 28%
Brees 16%
Delhomme 21%
Gradkowski 26%
P. Manning 19%
E. Manning 23%

So that puts Vick worse than a green rookie QB.

As pointed out earlier in the thread, the Falcons' dropped passes numbers are not even tops in the league so I think that is an excuse.

Data below:
 

Attachments

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