I've said it before, and I'll say it again (1 Viewer)

I agree. He's had a couple of tough games and is not passing over 60% yet, but he's still learning the pro game. He didn't come from a pro-style offense like Leinart and most highly drafted QBs do. Most thought it would take him at least two years to really catch on. At this rate, he could be in the Pro Bowl by next year. His work ethic is second to none.

I thought he would take two years. He may still take 2 or so years to really catch on to the passing game. What I underestimated was the "intangibles". I mean the team just plays better for him. He's clutch. He's in-command. That's something Vick STILL hasn't managed consistently. VY is the sole reason the Titans are suddenly as competitive as they are.

He may not put up good stats for 2 or 3 years, but I bet the Titans start winning enough to compete for the playoffs as soon as next season (unless they lose Jeff Fisher, then all bets are off depending on what coach they hire).

Pro Bowl won't happen though. Pro Bowl is a stats honor and Vince won't put up anything near Peyton or even Brady numbers, maybe never. I don't think that's the sort of QB he will be.
 
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253

Check the game logs and count them up. I only counted games he played significant time in. Not sure what warped bizzarro logic the Falcons are using, but it doesn't fly.

Drew's career record is as meaningless as Vick's, Jake Delhomme's, or Peyton Manning's after his first 5 seasons (which included a 3-13 season and a 6-10 season and must have been pretty bad). QBs are members of teams.

That was my point. This empty (and incorrect) recitation of Vicks amazing win-loss record (when it isn't even that great) as some sort of arguement is silly. It's not an arguement and even if it were it wouldn't even be that good of a one.

PS - 36-25-1 is still only a 58% win percentage, which still rounds out to be a 9-7 record (9.3 wins as opposed to 8.8 wins).

Now compare that the their winning percentage when someone else starts.
 
Now compare that the their winning percentage when someone else starts.

Bad arguement too. If Jake Delhomme went down and Chris Weinke had to start in his place, even the Panthers would struggle more offensively then usual. Any team which loses it's starting QB is in trouble. I'm not suggesting Schaub or Vick's older backup the incomporable Doug Johnson (who isn't even in football anymore) are as good as Vick. They aren't. And Vick is worth an extra 1 or 2 wins all by himself anyways because he gets hot sometimes. But that doesn't make Vick a Top 10 QB in the NFL. It makes him a starter with a ton of other negative baggage (contract, expectations, attitude, etc)


(sorry if I'm coming off strong, i've just been in a thousand Vick arguements so I have a thousand responses rehearsed by now)
 
Bad arguement too. If Jake Delhomme went down and Chris Weinke had to start in his place, even the Panthers would struggle more offensively then usual. Any team which loses it's starting QB is in trouble. I'm not suggesting Schaub or Vick's older backup the incomporable Doug Johnson (who isn't even in football anymore) are as good as Vick. They aren't. And Vick is worth an extra 1 or 2 wins all by himself anyways because he gets hot sometimes. But that doesn't make Vick a Top 10 QB in the NFL. It makes him a starter with a ton of other negative baggage (contract, expectations, attitude, etc)


(sorry if I'm coming off strong, i've just been in a thousand Vick arguements so I have a thousand responses rehearsed by now)

As do I.

But many are suggesting Schaub is an NFL caliber starting QB, better than Vick, or both.

Given that Schaub is 0-2 and Vick is around 60%, that argument seems pretty silly.
 
Now compare that the their winning percentage when someone else starts.

When someone else starts for the Falcons, the entire playbook has to/ had to change... you have Vick, the only quarterback in the league, starting or otherwise, who's mobile abilities all but excuse him from putting up mundane passing numbers, that you're trying to replace with a guy who may be just as good passing without the mobile aspect. Do you really think Kurt Kittner or Doug Johnson could run the QB options, bootlegs, and other designed-for-Vick plays that largely compose the Falcons' playbook? Me neither, and that's what puts the Falcons in a bind - you essentially have 31 interchangeable starting QBs in the NFL, then Mike Vick. Carson Palmer could plug into the Dolphins system, Philip Rivers could plug into the Vikings system, Jon Kitna could plug into the 49ers system, Donovan McNabb could plug into the Chiefs' system, Drew Brees in the Redskins', and so on. Try putting Tom Brady in the Falcons' system (not their personnel, just their current playcalling allowances/tendencies). He'd be set up for failure. Similarly, Michael Vick couldn't execute in the Lions' system.
 
NFL - Passes Dropped
Rank Team Passes Dropped

1 Phi 30
2 GB 27
3 Mia 24
4 NO 21
5 NE 20
6 Sea 20
7 TB 20
8 Jac 20
9 Ari 19
10 Cle 18
11 Ind 17
12 Min 16
13 NYG 16
14 Car 16
15 Atl 15
16 Dal 15
17 Ten 15
18 Oak 14
19 Pit 14
20 Was 14
21 KC 13
22 NYJ 13
23 Hou 12
24 Bal 12
25 Den 11
26 SD 11
27 Det 10
28 Cin 8
29 Buf 7
30 Chi 7
31 StL 7
32 SF 6

source?

////12
 
As do I.

But many are suggesting Schaub is an NFL caliber starting QB, better than Vick, or both.

Given that Schaub is 0-2 and Vick is around 60%, that argument seems pretty silly.

Well Schaub might be good. Honestly I don't know. A lot of NFL teams sure seem to like him, which suggests something is there. But then the same was said about Rob Johnson (lots of interest, looked good in spot duty), didn't exactly turn out to be a Pro Bowler.

If you're a team in need of a QB (like maybe the Vikings) Schaub might be worth a 3rd rounder to you. But it's just like drafting a QB with him. You don't know for sure what you're getting.

As for Atlanta's situation, it's impossible to solve. Vick isn't the most awful QB on earth even though I trash talk him like he is. He's actually not bad at all. He's exciting and can keep a team in games it shouldn't be in, and isn't a terrible passer (but not a particularly good one either). The problem is there are so much other negative things surrounding him that don't occur on the football field but still translate onto it that I honestly feel he may never "succeed" in terms of what is expected out of him. Everything with him is so toxic, partially do to him, a lot not his fault, it's always going to be a disaster.

Atlanta for the next 4 years or so is going to always be a threat, but never really be more then a 9-7 team with maybe one more "good" year thrown in. They'll never be consistent, but always dangerous. And that team is going to kill at least 1 other coach's career before it's done and Vick is finally released and goes somewhere else.
 
As do I.

But many are suggesting Schaub is an NFL caliber starting QB, better than Vick, or both.

Given that Schaub is 0-2 and Vick is around 60%, that argument seems pretty silly.


Shaub hasn't gotten to play much, and Vick has. If you were to put Shaub in and let him play, he would start to gain experience, and would eventually be an NFL calibre QB.
 
It's impossible to know whether Schaub will be any good or not.


LSSpam - The system Vick is in, is terrible for his abilities. The WCO is about the worst offense he can be in.

I think Vick would be extremely succesful with a fresh start under a coach that doesn't seem to be so stubbornly tied to traditional NFL methodologies (exactly why I wanted VY to go to Tennessee under Chow). Mora lacks the creativity and willingness to adapt that it will take to optimize the results you get from Vick, who has an extremely high ceiling.
 
LSSpam, you are right. Vick is not the worst in the league, though he is close. To me, he is a RB playing QB. If you watch him play, you will see him make one read (to his 1st option) then tuck the ball and run. This is not a QB. A QB makes his progressions - 1....2....3; then, if nothing is there, he either runs or throws the ball away.

Here's the thing. If you owned a team, who would you want at QB? A QB who is a pocket passer - one who can read defenses, goes through all his progressions and plays smart football. A field general. Or, Michael Vick. That is the question.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

... and again, and again, and again.... :hihi:

Just giving you a hard time, DR.
 
It's impossible to know whether Schaub will be any good or not.


LSSpam - The system Vick is in, is terrible for his abilities. The WCO is about the worst offense he can be in.

I think Vick would be extremely succesful with a fresh start under a coach that doesn't seem to be so stubbornly tied to traditional NFL methodologies (exactly why I wanted VY to go to Tennessee under Chow). Mora lacks the creativity and willingness to adapt that it will take to optimize the results you get from Vick, who has an extremely high ceiling.

He can't start fresh though. The fact is what really needs to happen is he needs a coach to come in and break him down and build him back up again. But he can't go back to being a rookie for 1 or 2 seasons. Again, it's part of all of the "baggage" that surrounds him. He's in an untenable position.

I don't think it's inherently the WCO that's the problem (they don't really borrow anything philosophically from the WCO this year. In fact, they don't seem to have ANY coherent offensive philosophy at all).

I DO think if he grew up within a real system, he would be much more succesful. Instead Dan Reeves, in the twlight of his career, rather then suffering growing pains with Vick having to depress part of his game (running around) in order to develop at a slower pace other parts of his game (distributing the ball, setting things up, etc), he just let Vick run around like he was in college still.

Then Mora came in and didn't have the slightest clue what he was doing (3-4 defense, oops no it's the 4-3. WCO offense, no we'll run the shotgun zone-read option, no maybe we're an I formation team...), it's just a disaster. At this point Vick should be competeing for a Super Bowl, instead he still doesn't have a clear idea what it means to be a QB.

Brees is the best demonstration of this. Look, sometimes, being a QB, it isn't chucking it to Plaxico Burress every play and hoping one of the passes stick or running 20 yards, even if those result in big plays. Sometimes it's getting Terrence Copper involved or checking down to Ernie Conwell, even if you leave potentially bigger gains out on the field on any given play. Because football isn't one play, it isn't even one game, and a QB has to think bigger picture then any other player. (think Steve Nash vs Stephon Maybury) And Vick just doesn't "get it".
 
LSSpam, you are right. Vick is not the worst in the league, though he is close. To me, he is a RB playing QB. If you watch him play, you will see him make one read (to his 1st option) then tuck the ball and run. This is not a QB. A QB makes his progressions - 1....2....3; then, if nothing is there, he either runs or throws the ball away.

Here's the thing. If you owned a team, who would you want at QB? A QB who is a pocket passer - one who can read defenses, goes through all his progressions and plays smart football. A field general. Or, Michael Vick. That is the question.


It depends on what pocket passer and what "mobile QB" you are talking about.

Brees or Vick? Brees, any day. But Brees is one of the top 2-3 quarterbacks in the league.

Vick or an average/slightly above average pocket passer, like, say, Trent Green... I'll take Vick.

And you act like being a non-traditional pocket passer and being an intelligent field general are mutually exclusive. I'd take McNabb, McNair in his prime, or Vince Young in a year or two over every QB in the league save Brees, Brady, and _maybe_ Carson Palmer.

Not everything is black and white (no pun intended).
 

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