Jameis Winston through 2 weeks is the worst QB in the pocket. Picture in post. (1 Viewer)

[blotch1]

Where is that chart from? And what criteria was used to determine if a QB is getting protection?

I know the o-line in game 2 was much better and Winston was not making quick decisions, but my eyes weren't lying to me in the first game when I saw almost constant early pressure on Winston, until the play-calling was adjusted at the end of the game.

 

[SystemShock]

Winston looked atrocious against Atlanta until the Saints went basically ALL shotgun in the fourth quarter.

I really want to know how Carmichael could watch that film and go "let's go right back to the base Atlanta gameplan"?

Atlanta went into prevent way too early.

 

[Usmfan84]

Looks to me that the higher on the graph the better the protection from the offensive line and the more to the right the better the QB is at preventing sacks with pocket presence and running.

Using Burrow as an example, his offensive line is doing the worst in the league at preventing sacks and he’s doing nothing to help them and may even be running into sacks.

Looks to me that our offensive line is 8th overall in protecting Winston but he’s the worst in the league at avoiding pressure when it comes. That could be dropping back too far in the pocket, holding the ball too long, running into pressure etc…

Anyway you slice it this is concerning, Winston is terrible in the pocket right now while getting better protection than most QBs in the league.

If you go back and watch Ram, it looked like he struggled in this game some. He had one play where he let a linebacker run directly at Winston for a sack but it resulted in a "unnecessary roughness" penalty on that linebacker. Still, i'm not sure I have ever seen Ram do that before. It could just be that he whiffed on the play but I'm starting to think the line doesn't have a feel for what Jameis is going to do in the pocket. It's so inconsistent on his drop back depth. He's rolling left when he should sit still, or rolling right when it should be left.

 

[Usmfan84]

Where is that chart from? And what criteria was used to determine if a QB is getting protection?

I know the o-line in game 2 was much better and Winston was not making quick decisions, but my eyes weren't lying to me in the first game when I saw almost constant early pressure on Winston, until the play-calling was adjusted at the end of the game.

Kevin Cole, the director of Data and Analytics for PFF.

 

[SystemShock]

The one thing that I don't see, is play changes at the line or calling protections at the line. Looks to me that the Saints just line up and run whatever single play the OC called, no matter what the defense does.

 

[B4YOU]

This isn’t a surprise. Winston has taken the second most sacks this year.

We saw at least two sacks against TB where Winston is outside the pocket but just could not run fast enough to get past the LoS. That’s 100% on him.

Winston also has one of the longest time to throw in the NFL, partly due to his depth of target. It’s also partly due to holding the ball too long.

 

[los226]

The obvious is that he’s holding onto the ball too long because he’s scared of throwing INT’s

 

[Taker597]

Looks to me that the higher on the graph the better the protection from the offensive line and the more to the right the better the QB is at preventing sacks with pocket presence and running.

Using Burrow as an example, his offensive line is doing the worst in the league at preventing sacks and he’s doing nothing to help them and may even be running into sacks.

Looks to me that our offensive line is 8th overall in protecting Winston but he’s the worst in the league at avoiding pressure when it comes. That could be dropping back too far in the pocket, holding the ball too long, running into pressure etc…

Anyway you slice it this is concerning, Winston is terrible in the pocket right now while getting better protection than most QBs in the league.

Looks like to me that the sample size is honestly a little too small to validate much of this graph.

I think at week 4 or 5 would be a little clearer image.

The language is still pretty confusing.

It just seems like it looks worse than what it intent.

We know Winston got sacked 10 times and had 17 QB hits
We know Burrow got sacked 13 times and 20 QB hits

Winston not mobile at all with his injury and knee brace. So... He couldn't prevent a sack or run away from pressure anyway. He's too slow. Winston gave up two or three sacks on scrambles too. Winston got rocked a lot while getting a pass off... Does that not count as a prevented sack?


This whole graph looks great and shows an area of concern that's clear, but I'm really not convinced of anything of substance can be found from it.

 

[Usmfan84]

Looks like to me that the sample size is honestly a little too small to validate much of this graph.

I think at week 4 or 5 would be a little clearer image.

The language is still pretty confusing.

It just seems like it looks worse than what it intent.

We know Winston got sacked 10 times and had 17 QB hits
We know Burrow got sacked 13 times and 20 QB hits

Winston not mobile at all with his injury and knee brace. So... He couldn't prevent a sack or run away from pressure anyway. He's too slow. Winston gave up two or three sacks on scrambles too. Winston got rocked a lot while getting a pass off... Does that not count as a prevented sack?


This whole graph looks great and shows an area of concern that's clear, but I'm really not convinced of anything of substance can be found from it.

Just that he's currently taking sacks he shouldn't be. Winston turned the ball over 4 times last week because he just wasn't very good at all. Hopefully over the weeks it corrects itself, but if he struggles against Carolina i think you gotta pull the Dalton trigger. This window didn't close with Brees and SP, but it might be done in 2 years so the team doesn't really have time to be patient. Demario Davis and Cam Jordan aren't getting any younger. The team is actually one of the oldest in the league.

 

[ANKOMA33]

Maybe I'm not following the metrics on that chart, but I would have put Wentz as the worst of any QB in the league relating to "QB's in the pocket".

Carson has looked terrible in 2 games.

 

[i_am_error]

I guess...i admit I can come off that way. I felt he should have definitely been pulled at half against TB. I didn't like the way he was moving, at all. He literally looked like a 2x4 with legs. I can't tell if it's his back or just Jameis because he's always looked like a statue, but last week was particularly bad.

You didn't come off that way to anyone who is open to earned criticism.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

SOmeone mentioned depth of routes as a reason why he's holding on the ball too long....I don't think that's the case it's more the opposite. This offense HAS NOT opened up w/ JW behind center. The problem is that JW isn't attempting those quick outs, curls, slants called and as a result, he's left standing back there staring at covered WRs at the top of their short routes.

We're still running a kneecapped route tree....calling token shots over the top isn't going to back the D off, that needs to be an option every play, just to push the tail end of the coverage back. The INT when trhowing to JOhnson onthe deep out, that should've been a deep corner post away from the CB squatting in the zone...it's bad play design combined w/ some not so great decisions behind center.

 

[PXSaber]

I'm all for giving him the keys in Carolina to see what he's got, but I'm also not sure he's the right fit with what our team is comfortable with.

Dalton- 11 years
Winston- 8 years
We know exactly who these players are now. They are not some 2nd or 3rd year players where we should be saying "give them time".

The argument for Dalton is our floor is lifted significantly while our ceiling decreases. 6 of his 11 seasons we saw very good QB play and he was good enough to make the playoffs while making multiple pro bowls. Dalton is faster and more accurate at the intermediate game. If he's starting I truly believe we are comfortably 2-0. Not sure about SB quality because his BOOM capability is much lower but we might be a better overall team.

The argument for Winston is he's obviously more talented. Has a top 10 arm. The ceiling increases but man does the floor drop. He's never shown consistency. He will throw 4 tds one game and 4 ints the next. I don't have a lot to say here because honestly in his career he hasn't accomplished anything. He's still riding on "maybe he will get it together", but man it's year 8. It should have happened by now. Either way I'm pulling for him to turn it around because from everything we've seen he's really turned his life around and people say he's a great dude and I like to see redemption stories.

Id prefer a little higher floor rn

We would have won both games without much hassle

And overall if we reach the playoffs, the trickery will be all over the place with Taysom and stuff

 

[Usmfan84]

Maybe I'm not following the metrics on that chart, but I would have put Wentz as the worst of any QB in the league relating to "QB's in the pocket".

Carson has looked terrible in 2 games.

I have no idea but looking up his stats on paper vs Winstons, well Wentz is having a much better season. Completely lol.
Less sacks. More yards. More tds. More y/a. 100 rating.
All this chart is trying to tell you is that Winston is taking more sacks and hits than he should be.

 

[Taker597]

@Usmfan84, Also, I'm not invalidating on Winston not helping his offensive line, btw.

He hasn't been silky smooth at all in the pocket. I get there are a lot of reasonable contributing factors, but at the end of the day. Winston can't get by playing hurt and slow. He needs to sit and get healthy. He was great last year at avoiding sacks, but a year older and a year slower don't help.

I just this it's a really bad graph is all.