Just had a sudden burst of insight and figured I'd share (1 Viewer)

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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I'm going to try to shorten/narrow this down as much as I can.


-Last year Kikaha was drafted to play Sam LB(LOLB) in an Under Front.
-In an under front the SAM LB(LOLB) is essentially a chase player and typically ---gets put in favorable positions.
-Because of the LDE's alignment the SAM LB is either usually afforded a favorable matchup against TE's or RB'sin run blocking, is the unblocked man and allowed to be a chase player, or gets matched up with a slower footed RT or LT in pass protection on passing downs.

To underscore this point I've decided to post Kikaha's highlight video from his rookie year for your viewing pleasure. You'll notice a lot of his plays were of the above variety. Thats not to say he didn't win against LT's at times but those matchups were usually on passing downs and only occasionally in the run game*which he did a good job at too). The bulk of his work/plays however were made in the ways described above.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/S04UxFNnO04" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Now that we've gotten that out of the way the opposite of the under front is the over front (in a nutshell) So if the SAM is the free runner in the under front then the RDE is the free runner (or open end/chase player) in an over front.

Now here is where I had my sudden insight....


Where as in an under because you are on the Sam is on strong side you can have a 6'2 245-255 player as your Sam LB on all 3 downs. Hoewver, in an over because the weakside is usually an Athletic OT in the 300LB range you need to have a bigger (base end) OR the smaller player has to be an adequate run defender (which when you look at some of Kikaha's wins against LT's in the run game you can see how he translated to being the starter pre-injury). Thus is the reason you need that 6'5 270 body type. Thats the prototype. Now if that player has the size to play against LT's but the speed/bend to win like a smaller guy then thats a plus. Unfortunately guys like that are rare so you end up with more of a platoon or with a RDE that can just swap and play LDE on passing downs. You basically have him give way to the passrusher or 3rd down guy.


In short what I've realized is that in the over...unless the RDE is an elite guy that has size too(Think Chandler Jones)...the real star of the show is the 3rd down Nickel Rusher.


The object of FA will be to get a DE with size that can on occasion swap out with Jordan as a LDE or swap with a passrush specialist. This makes a role for a young undersized passrusher taken in the draft easy to step into. If that isn't possible then I'd expect them to sign an undersized guy and maybe combo that up with a young run defender in the draft.

Either way Kikaha/Gwachum will be joined by two similar body types.
 

Slaw

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I don't know if it will play out just like that. I'll be fine with a vet and a rookie. Something like Ware/Branch/Dumervil and Thomas/Barnett/McKinley. Not too worried about body types.
 

robsmith32

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All i know, is we sure missed out on having him to use this last year.
 

dutar76

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So there's 2 types of DE's we need... OR find a guy with the size, speed, and bend to play both run and pass?

In our draft cloud the guys that can do it both would be Barnett and Taco, right?

Or we need to get a Tak or Tim Williams AND another DE that's more of a run defender... such as who?
 

Slaw

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So there's 2 types of DE's we need... OR find a guy with the size, speed, and bend to play both run and pass?

In our draft cloud the guys that can do it both would be Barnett and Taco, right?

Or we need to get a Tak or Tim Williams AND another DE that's more of a run defender... such as who?
I don't see the need. I would start Tak or Williams just like I would Barnett. Unless we sign somebody like Ware or Branch and ease the rookie in. Don't see the need for a bigger DE.
 
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I don't see the need. I would start Tak or Williams just like I would Barnett. Unless we sign somebody like Ware or Branch and ease the rookie in. Don't see the need for a bigger DE.
There's a misconception of Barnett being a better run defender than Tak because he's thicker. He's not. Takk is much better with leverage and shedding. The film doesn't lie.
 

Slaw

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There's a misconception of Barnett being a better run defender than Tak because he's thicker. He's not. Takk is much better with leverage and shedding. The film doesn't lie.
I believe it. I don't know why Barnett is looked at like he's a Cam Jordan type player against the run. He's not.
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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I don't know if it will play out just like that. I'll be fine with a vet and a rookie. Something like Ware/Branch/Dumervil and Thomas/Barnett/McKinley. Not too worried about body types.
Yeah..I should have said Skillsets.
 

Slaw

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Yeah..I should have said Skillsets.
I think every player we look at will be a pass rusher first and run defense will be an added bonus. I don't think we'll add a run stuffer and a pass rusher. I think we'll add pass rushers, but to start they will need to at least be serviceable in the run game.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think we'll target 2 different types of players for RE. Just 1 type, but probably a vet and a rookie.
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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There's a misconception of Barnett being a better run defender than Tak because he's thicker. He's not. Takk is much better with leverage and shedding. The film doesn't lie.
Tak seems good at using his arms in run defense but not so much in his pass rush. He doesn't get enough pop in his bull rush to unlock his potential to keep himself clean with those long arms after he creates separation from the bull. His explosiveness suggest it's more to do with hand placement than power. I'd like to see his vertical/broad combo. They will tell the problem if they are both solid it's a technique thing. If one is below average it'll be an athletic deficiency. He's also a little stiff so unlocking that bull rush is his best bet. He could resemble a mini Alston Smith..the juiced up version.

Edit: His bench will tell you if it's a lack of upper body strength too.
 

dutar76

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I notice that very few bring Taco into these discussions. Something about him that I don't know about?

I've read where he might be a bit of a project but that he's got the potential to be an early pro-bowler. High ceiling - low floor. I've even read that he could turn into the kind of player that everyone thinks Garret will be.

Just curious.
 
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I think every player we look at will be a pass rusher first and run defense will be an added bonus. I don't think we'll add a run stuffer and a pass rusher. I think we'll add pass rushers, but to start they will need to at least be serviceable in the run game.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think we'll target 2 different types of players for RE. Just 1 type, but probably a vet and a rookie.
You earn the right to rush the passer. Edebali never saw starting snaps due to run game limitations, and Gwachum was moved aside because he show up in the run game. Kruger was the best option available and even he didn't do a great job. They will definitely look for a guy with at least average ability to stop the run.

I pay attention to the small tidbits that fly in the air leading up to FA and the draft. Last year SP was at OSI for Thomas pro day. The year before we were tied to Anthony often and in 2014 an early report we liked Cooks late popped up. Just last year the Fairley reports popped up early...this year.. it was Andre Branch that was mentioned After the big name of Melvin Ingram. It was like tiny print. He's this years Fairley and coming off a 1 year prove it deal himself.
 
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Tak seems good at using his arms in run defense but not so much in his pass rush. He doesn't get enough pop in his bull rush to unlock his potential to keep himself clean with those long arms after he creates separation from the bull. His explosiveness suggest it's more to do with hand placement than power. I'd like to see his vertical/broad combo. They will tell the problem if they are both solid it's a technique thing. If one is below average it'll be an athletic deficiency. He's also a little stiff so unlocking that bull rush is his best bet. He could resemble a mini Alston Smith..the juiced up version.
If Takk gets to participate in the combine he's going to blow it up. He's an athletic freak. And to consider that he did what he did last year with one good shoulder I'd even more remarkable. He's the guy I want in the 1st.
 
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ELLIASJWILLIAMS

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

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I notice that very few bring Taco into these discussions. Something about him that I don't know about?

I've read where he might be a bit of a project but that he's got the potential to be an early pro-bowler. High ceiling - low floor. I've even read that he could turn into the kind of player that everyone thinks Garret will be.

Just curious.
He's on the Radar too. I like the kid that lined up opposite Garrett as a dark horse.

If Takk gets to participate in the combine he's going to blow it up. He's an athletic freak. And to consider that he did what he did last year with one good shoulder I'd even more remarkable. He's the guy I want in the 1st.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Colts/comments/5vu2gw/tak_mckinley_to_have_shoulder_surgery_after/


Major Bummer,,..that's gotta cause him to slide considering what happened with the kid from Clemson last year...Buffalo..name escapes me.
 

Slaw

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You earn the right to rush the passer. Edebali never saw starting snaps due to run game limitations, and Gwachum was moved aside because he show up in the run game. Kruger was the best option available and even he didn't do a great job. They will definitely look for a guy with at least average ability to stop the run.

I pay attention to the small tidbits that fly in the air leading up to FA and the draft. Last year SP was at OSI for Thomas pro day. The year before we were tied to Anthony often and in 2014 an early report we liked Cooks late popped up. Just last year the Fairley reports popped up early...this year.. it was Andre Branch that was mentioned After the big name of Melvin Ingram. It was like tiny print. He's this years Fairley and coming off a 1 year prove it deal himself.
I think Branch will be a Saint soon. He'll be better than Kruger. Not sure how much though. I'm hoping for Ware.
 

TruSaint

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Need to just sign melvin ingram and call it a day
 

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