Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan (2 Viewers)

[Danchrism]

1) A dominant big man paired up with a player like Kobe or Jordan is going to get you a title every time. Shaq went to the Lakers in his very prime and in the first year Kobe wasn't even near his prime. Gasol is in his prime as we speak and what happened? Kobe wins another two titles.

2) Jordan left the Bulls for a while to play baseball. Do you remember that? Pippen was the leader of that team when Jordan was busy refreshing himself for another 3peat and what did he accomplish? Nothing, he was bounced out of the playoffs two years straight. Jordan comes back and wins another three with almost the exact same team. Kobe doesn't make players better and Jordan did.

3) You want proof that MJ is better? Shaq leaves L.A. and aside from the year when the Lakers tried to be the Yankees of basketball by going out and getting Malone and Gary Payton, they were a 6th - 8th seed that weren't even relevant all while Kobe's ppg average was at its peak.

1) Really? A very good big man + a very good shooting guard is a good nucleus for a basketball team? GROUNDBREAKING!
Kobe didn't start when Shaq first got to L.A. - once he got his chops ('98 and '99 playoffs) and a more NBA-ready body (rookie Kobe weighed 190, Afro Kobe weighed about 205, Kobe today pushes 220), we saw the Lakers threepeat. But no, let's make it about the fact that Kobe wasn't ready to supplant Eddie Jones just yet, and just say that Kobe sucks instead

2) MJ was replaced by Pete Myers. Let's just say he didn't go on to have a stellar playing career after leaving the Bulls. And let's remember this point for later.

3) First, Shaq was on that team that had Payton and Malone. Second, which of these players was Kobe supposed to make better?

9 Chucky Atkins G 5-11 160 August 14, 1974 5 University of South Florida
15 Tony Bobbitt G 6-4 190 October 22, 1979 R University of Cincinnati
5 Tierre Brown G 6-2 189 June 3, 1979 3 McNeese State University
8 Kobe Bryant G 6-6 200 August 23, 1978 8
1 Caron Butler F 6-7 217 March 13, 1980 2 University of Connecticut
43 Brian Cook F 6-9 234 December 4, 1980 1 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
12 Vlade Divac C 7-1 243 February 3, 1968 15
3 Devean George G-F 6-8 220 August 29, 1977 5 Augsburg College
55 Brian Grant F 6-9 254 March 5, 1972 10 Xavier University
20 Jumaine Jones F 6-8 218 February 10, 1979 5 University of Georgia
14 Stanislav Medvedenko F 6-10 250 April 4, 1979 4
31 Chris Mihm C 7-0 265 July 16, 1979 4 University of Texas at Austin
7 Lamar Odom F 6-10 220 November 6, 1979 5 University of Rhode Island
21 Kareem Rush G 6-6 215 October 30, 1980 2 University of Missouri
18 Sasha Vujacic G 6-7 193 March 8, 1984 R
4 Luke Walton F 6-8 235 March 28, 1980 1 University of Arizona


54 Kwame Brown F 6-11 270 March 10, 1982 4
8 Kobe Bryant G 6-6 200 August 23, 1978 9
17 Andrew Bynum C 7-0 285 October 27, 1987 R
43 Brian Cook F 6-9 234 December 4, 1980 2 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
3 Devean George G-F 6-8 220 August 29, 1977 6 Augsburg College
11 Devin Green G 6-7 210 October 25, 1982 R Hampton University
24 Jim Jackson G 6-6 220 October 14, 1970 13 Ohio State University
2 Aaron McKie G 6-5 209 October 2, 1972 11 Temple University
14 Stanislav Medvedenko F 6-10 250 April 4, 1979 5
31 Chris Mihm C 7-0 265 July 16, 1979 5 University of Texas at Austin
7 Lamar Odom F 6-10 220 November 6, 1979 6 University of Rhode Island
1 Smush Parker G 6-4 190 June 1, 1981 2 Fordham University
9 Laron Profit G-F 6-5 204 August 5, 1977 3 University of Maryland
21 Ronny Turiaf F 6-10 249 January 13, 1983 R Gonzaga University
18 Sasha Vujacic G 6-7 193 March 8, 1984 1
23 Von Wafer G 6-5 210 July 21, 1985 R Florida State University
4 Luke Walton F 6-8 235 March 28, 1980 2 University of Arizona


54 Kwame Brown F 6-11 270 March 10, 1982 5
24 Kobe Bryant G 6-6 200 August 23, 1978 10
17 Andrew Bynum C 7-0 285 October 27, 1987 1
43 Brian Cook F 6-9 234 December 4, 1980 3 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
6 Maurice Evans G 6-5 220 November 8, 1978 3 University of Texas at Austin
5 Jordan Farmar G 6-2 180 November 30, 1986 R University of California, Los Angeles
2 Aaron McKie G 6-5 209 October 2, 1972 12 Temple University
7 Lamar Odom F 6-10 220 November 6, 1979 7 University of Rhode Island
1 Smush Parker G 6-4 190 June 1, 1981 3 Fordham University
10 Vladimir Radmanovic F 6-10 227 November 19, 1980 5
21 Ronny Turiaf F 6-10 249 January 13, 1983 1 Gonzaga University
18 Sasha Vujacic G 6-7 193 March 8, 1984 2
4 Luke Walton F 6-8 235 March 28, 1980 3 University of Arizona
3 Shammond Williams G 6-1 201 April 5, 1975 6 University of North Carolina


Lamar Odom is still around, Andrew Bynum is still around (and has improved over time, if you weren't checking), Ronny Turiaf and Caron Butler are the only other players getting real minutes on other teams. That's the list; even Luke and Sasha aren't getting minutes. No one else left those Lakers teams and had a better career elsewhere, which means it wasn't a matter of getting them minutes in a better system in order for them to shine.
Which of those teams were the Lakers supposed to contend for a title with? That would be like downplaying Chris Paul's talents because that '09 roster couldn't get out of the first round, Wade for being the best player on a 15-win Miami team, or LeBron's '03 Cavs for not making the playoffs whereas Melo's '03 Nuggets did. Those weren't teams you won with! Teams -- and yes, this includes teams with super-duper stars -- sometimes have to reset the table to be competent franchises later. '05-'07 was that time for the Lakers. They weren't winning with those teams, but I don't recall anyone really expecting them to. Jordan's first five teams (not counting '86 when he broke his foot) weren't built to win a title. When they were built to win, they won. The '11 Heat might not win the title (just like the '99 Lakers, the '08 Lakers, and the '90 Bulls didn't) but just like all those teams won the next season, it wouldn't shock me to see them pull it off.


I say all that to say that sometimes in basketball, you have to take a step back before you step forward. Jordan started off on a team in step-back mode, whereas Kobe started off on a team moving forward. He had to endure losing after winning. Jordan reached the top then never seriously had to worry about the Bulls imploding with him around.

 

[Complex Kid]

2) MJ was replaced by Pete Myers. Let's just say he didn't go on to have a stellar playing career after leaving the Bulls. And let's remember this point for later.

Dammit Dan. You had it all teed up and then you forget to bring down the damn hammer:

1992-93 Bulls with Jordan 57-25
1993-94 Bulls with Myers 55-27

5 Tierre Brown G 6-2 189 June 3, 1979 3 McNeese State University

HEY! You watch what you say about the 2004 NBDL MVP and the man ranked 6th and 9th All-Time in NBDL Scoring and Assists!!!

 

[TheMike62987]

1) Really? A very good big man + a very good shooting guard is a good nucleus for a basketball team? GROUNDBREAKING!
Kobe didn't start when Shaq first got to L.A. - once he got his chops ('98 and '99 playoffs) and a more NBA-ready body (rookie Kobe weighed 190, Afro Kobe weighed about 205, Kobe today pushes 220), we saw the Lakers threepeat. But no, let's make it about the fact that Kobe wasn't ready to supplant Eddie Jones just yet, and just say that Kobe sucks instead

2) MJ was replaced by Pete Myers. Let's just say he didn't go on to have a stellar playing career after leaving the Bulls. And let's remember this point for later.

3) First, Shaq was on that team that had Payton and Malone. Second, which of these players was Kobe supposed to make better?

9 Chucky Atkins G 5-11 160 August 14, 1974 5 University of South Florida
15 Tony Bobbitt G 6-4 190 October 22, 1979 R University of Cincinnati
5 Tierre Brown G 6-2 189 June 3, 1979 3 McNeese State University
8 Kobe Bryant G 6-6 200 August 23, 1978 8
1 Caron Butler F 6-7 217 March 13, 1980 2 University of Connecticut
43 Brian Cook F 6-9 234 December 4, 1980 1 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
12 Vlade Divac C 7-1 243 February 3, 1968 15
3 Devean George G-F 6-8 220 August 29, 1977 5 Augsburg College
55 Brian Grant F 6-9 254 March 5, 1972 10 Xavier University
20 Jumaine Jones F 6-8 218 February 10, 1979 5 University of Georgia
14 Stanislav Medvedenko F 6-10 250 April 4, 1979 4
31 Chris Mihm C 7-0 265 July 16, 1979 4 University of Texas at Austin
7 Lamar Odom F 6-10 220 November 6, 1979 5 University of Rhode Island
21 Kareem Rush G 6-6 215 October 30, 1980 2 University of Missouri
18 Sasha Vujacic G 6-7 193 March 8, 1984 R
4 Luke Walton F 6-8 235 March 28, 1980 1 University of Arizona


54 Kwame Brown F 6-11 270 March 10, 1982 4
8 Kobe Bryant G 6-6 200 August 23, 1978 9
17 Andrew Bynum C 7-0 285 October 27, 1987 R
43 Brian Cook F 6-9 234 December 4, 1980 2 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
3 Devean George G-F 6-8 220 August 29, 1977 6 Augsburg College
11 Devin Green G 6-7 210 October 25, 1982 R Hampton University
24 Jim Jackson G 6-6 220 October 14, 1970 13 Ohio State University
2 Aaron McKie G 6-5 209 October 2, 1972 11 Temple University
14 Stanislav Medvedenko F 6-10 250 April 4, 1979 5
31 Chris Mihm C 7-0 265 July 16, 1979 5 University of Texas at Austin
7 Lamar Odom F 6-10 220 November 6, 1979 6 University of Rhode Island
1 Smush Parker G 6-4 190 June 1, 1981 2 Fordham University
9 Laron Profit G-F 6-5 204 August 5, 1977 3 University of Maryland
21 Ronny Turiaf F 6-10 249 January 13, 1983 R Gonzaga University
18 Sasha Vujacic G 6-7 193 March 8, 1984 1
23 Von Wafer G 6-5 210 July 21, 1985 R Florida State University
4 Luke Walton F 6-8 235 March 28, 1980 2 University of Arizona


54 Kwame Brown F 6-11 270 March 10, 1982 5
24 Kobe Bryant G 6-6 200 August 23, 1978 10
17 Andrew Bynum C 7-0 285 October 27, 1987 1
43 Brian Cook F 6-9 234 December 4, 1980 3 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
6 Maurice Evans G 6-5 220 November 8, 1978 3 University of Texas at Austin
5 Jordan Farmar G 6-2 180 November 30, 1986 R University of California, Los Angeles
2 Aaron McKie G 6-5 209 October 2, 1972 12 Temple University
7 Lamar Odom F 6-10 220 November 6, 1979 7 University of Rhode Island
1 Smush Parker G 6-4 190 June 1, 1981 3 Fordham University
10 Vladimir Radmanovic F 6-10 227 November 19, 1980 5
21 Ronny Turiaf F 6-10 249 January 13, 1983 1 Gonzaga University
18 Sasha Vujacic G 6-7 193 March 8, 1984 2
4 Luke Walton F 6-8 235 March 28, 1980 3 University of Arizona
3 Shammond Williams G 6-1 201 April 5, 1975 6 University of North Carolina


Lamar Odom is still around, Andrew Bynum is still around (and has improved over time, if you weren't checking), Ronny Turiaf and Caron Butler are the only other players getting real minutes on other teams. That's the list; even Luke and Sasha aren't getting minutes. No one else left those Lakers teams and had a better career elsewhere, which means it wasn't a matter of getting them minutes in a better system in order for them to shine.
Which of those teams were the Lakers supposed to contend for a title with? That would be like downplaying Chris Paul's talents because that '09 roster couldn't get out of the first round, Wade for being the best player on a 15-win Miami team, or LeBron's '03 Cavs for not making the playoffs whereas Melo's '03 Nuggets did. Those weren't teams you won with! Teams -- and yes, this includes teams with super-duper stars -- sometimes have to reset the table to be competent franchises later. '05-'07 was that time for the Lakers. They weren't winning with those teams, but I don't recall anyone really expecting them to. Jordan's first five teams (not counting '86 when he broke his foot) weren't built to win a title. When they were built to win, they won. The '11 Heat might not win the title (just like the '99 Lakers, the '08 Lakers, and the '90 Bulls didn't) but just like all those teams won the next season, it wouldn't shock me to see them pull it off.


I say all that to say that sometimes in basketball, you have to take a step back before you step forward. Jordan started off on a team in step-back mode, whereas Kobe started off on a team moving forward. He had to endure losing after winning. Jordan reached the top then never seriously had to worry about the Bulls imploding with him around.

No one is downplaying Kobe's ability. If you want to stay with the new school NBA that is your choice, but you're downplaying Jordan's accomplishments and statistics in an NBA that still played defense while pumping up Kobe's in an NBA that puts defense on the back burner to flashy dunks and countless wide open jumpers. Look at their career Finals stats that I posted above... they speak for themselves. if you want to go back to the elementary school way of debating basketball players, I'll sum it up in one sentence. MJ in his prime beats Kobe in his prime in one on one.

As for Lebron, he absolutely brought the Cavaliers out of NBA hell when he arrived in Cleveland. He alone made that team a contender and we have seen this season when he faced his former team why he left. He made a group of terrible NBA basketball players become a strong contender for the Eastern Conference title for what, 6 out of 7 years with them? He alone carried that team.

 

[TheMike62987]

Dammit Dan. You had it all teed up and then you forget to bring down the damn hammer:

1992-93 Bulls with Jordan 57-25
1993-94 Bulls with Myers 55-27






HEY! You watch what you say about the 2004 NBDL MVP and the man ranked 6th and 9th All-Time in NBDL Scoring and Assists!!!

Regular season means nothing when the playoffs start, which also mean nothing when the Finals start. If I'm starting a new franchise and I can choose between 2000-20010 Kobe or 1991-1998 MJ' I'm taking MJ without hesitation.

 

[Complex Kid]

Regular season means nothing when the playoffs start, which also mean nothing when the Finals start. If I'm starting a new franchise and I can choose between 2000-20010 Kobe or 1991-1998 MJ' I'm taking MJ without hesitation.

I'm with you. I'm taking Jordan in his prime and it's not even that close. But let's not act like Jordan's supporting cast was a bunch of low level NBDL types.

That Scottie Pippen led squad was a very shady Hubert Davis foul from going up 3-2 and going back to Chicago (instead of being down 2-3 winning in Chicago and then losing Game 7 in NY) of going on to face a Pacers squad which they handled pretty well that year (4-1).

 

[TheMike62987]

I'm with you. I'm taking Jordan in his prime and it's not even that close. But let's not act like Jordan's supporting cast was a bunch of low level NBDL types.

That Scottie Pippen led squad was a very shady Hubert Davis foul from going up 3-2 and going back to Chicago (instead of being down 2-3 winning in Chicago and then losing Game 7 in NY) of going on to face a Pacers squad which they handled pretty well that year (4-1).

I'm not saying that Jordan's team wasn't good, but they still couldn't get it done. I do believe that the 2000 -2003 Lakers teams could have won maybe 2 of their first 3 titles without Kobe, but that is only because Shaq was unstoppable at that point in time.

 

[Danchrism]

No one is downplaying Kobe's ability. If you want to stay with the new school NBA that is your choice, but you're downplaying Jordan's accomplishments and statistics in an NBA that still played defense while pumping up Kobe's in an NBA that puts defense on the back burner to flashy dunks and countless wide open jumpers. Look at their career Finals stats that I posted above... they speak for themselves. if you want to go back to the elementary school way of debating basketball players, I'll sum it up in one sentence. MJ in his prime beats Kobe in his prime in one on one.

As for Lebron, he absolutely brought the Cavaliers out of NBA hell when he arrived in Cleveland. He alone made that team a contender and we have seen this season when he faced his former team why he left. He made a group of terrible NBA basketball players become a strong contender for the Eastern Conference title for what, 6 out of 7 years with them? He alone carried that team.

Elementary? Give me a break if anything, I've over-substantiated my point. I'm not shouting anyone down. Anything I've said about Jordan is referential. I don't like Jordan but have no problem saying he's the greatest player of all time. What's more bothersome is that people downplay Kobe Bryant for foolish reasons. Kobe's okay in my book but poorly-based statements make me pretty much have to defend the guy. I said pages ago that Kobe doesn't even crack my top 5 all-time and could reasonably not make the top 10.

My goodness if Shaq had done his NBA National Tour before settling down in LA after the '04 season, the Lakers just might hold every title from '05 on in. And that'd be with 28 mpg Shaq, not 36 mpg Shaq. Some other stiff like Kwame Brown or Chris Mihm might have been Shaq's caddy/crunch-time replacement. A 26-year-old Kobe absolutely would have been the alpha dog on that Lakers team, and he probably wouldn't have gone to play for the Chattanooga Lookouts in '07

 

[TheMike62987]

Breakdown for NBA FINALS only:

Jordan:
35 games played, 33.6 ppg, 48% FG, 81%FT, 6 Rebounds, 6 Assists, 1.8 steals

Kobe:

37 games played, 24.7 ppg, 41%FG, 85% FT, 5 rebounds, 1.75 assists, .89 steals

Pretty big differences in averages for the NBA Finals between the two for those highlighted stats. I'd say Jordan takes it dude.

I'll just repost these career NBA Finals stats.

 

[Galbreath34]

Go back in time and let MJ skip UNC, take his NBA lumps early, but cushioned with Sir Charles, Moses or Olajuwon there to help ease him into learning how to be a star and win championships, and Kobe isn't even in the conversation.

Kobe is great, but with all the longevity/external factors involved in his favor in his era, he's still only arguably in the conversation, not clearly ahead.

Same reason I think no matter what his numbers wound up being over a very long career, Emmitt Smith doesn't hold a candle to Payton or Jim Brown.

That said, I'm a casual NBA watcher, not a true fan.