Late 80-Early 90 NBA....... (1 Viewer)

[RazorOye]

Can we just talk for a minute about how cutting the bottom of the basket out changed the sport for the worse?

 

[Outbackjack]

All white 60 and over team?



I couldn't disagree more with the complexity thing. There are 0 teams that move the ball like the Celtics and Lakers of the 80's. Watch some of the old film in those games, its probably a generational thing I admit, but IMO there is no team in the current NBA that played better, harder, smarter or more complex basketball on both sides of the ball than those 2 teams. There were periods in those games where the ball barely touched the floor...the Bulls were great, no doubt, but they didn't have HOFers at every position....

THIS.

100 times over Russell Westbrook or James Harden bouncing it about 45 times in one possession, finally hoisting up a step back 3 without anyone else touching the ball.

1980’s-Excellent team basketball led by the superstars
2020- Excellent individual play led by the superstars.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Can we just talk for a minute about how cutting the bottom of the basket out changed the sport for the worse?

That’s just a dog whistle harkening back to the times before Jewish kids were allowed to play

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

THIS.

100 times over Russell Westbrook or James Harden bouncing it about 45 times in one possession, finally hoisting up a step back 3 without anyone else touching the ball.

1980’s-Excellent team basketball led by the superstars
2020- Excellent individual play led by the superstars.

Nobody enjoys watching that Rockets offense. I’m certainly not going to argue that.

But I think there is still plenty of exciting team ball in the NBA right now.

Even other high usage players, like Luka Doncic, are much more team oriented and fun to watch than Harden and Westbrook.

And it’s not like there was a shortage of teams dribbling the shot clock all the way down before running an isolation play in the 90’s.

 

[RazorOye]

Nobody enjoys watching that Rockets offense. I’m certainly not going to argue that.

But I think there is still plenty of exciting team ball in the NBA right now.

Even other high usage players, like Luka Doncic, are much more team oriented and fun to watch than Harden and Westbrook.

I love watching Toronto on Offense and defense. Same with Milwaukee. Miami on offence is a lot of fun. Luka is a blast to watch. OKC is so much fun to watch.

like I can watch giannis and Lopez as bigs playing outside. I can watch CP3 and SGA play complementary ball. I can watch Miami move it all over the floor. I can watch dame and cj mix it up in the lane with the bigs. There are a ton of different offensive schemes that execute well and are really fun to watch besides Houston. You can watch excellent pick and roll with Utah. You can watch solid 2-man with Luka and KP.

and a lot of these schemes rely on basics. It’s not iso ball as much any more. The math of the three changes the game but in order to do that you needed to Move the ball around more if you want good shots. Not just volume 3s.

spacing and passing and movement and rebounding. I like where the game is going but I do lose some patience at times with the emphasis on threes. Like today, Toronto was 0 for 5 to start the game. All threes. All good looks off of good offense but they werent falling. Thst gets old quick lol

 

[DaveXA]

I love watching Toronto on Offense and defense. Same with Milwaukee. Miami on offence is a lot of fun. Luka is a blast to watch. OKC is so much fun to watch.

like I can watch giannis and Lopez as bigs playing outside. I can watch CP3 and SGA play complementary ball. I can watch Miami move it all over the floor. I can watch dame and cj mix it up in the lane with the bigs. There are a ton of different offensive schemes that execute well and are really fun to watch besides Houston. You can watch excellent pick and roll with Utah. You can watch solid 2-man with Luka and KP.

and a lot of these schemes rely on basics. It’s not iso ball as much any more. The math of the three changes the game but in order to do that you needed to Move the ball around more if you want good shots. Not just volume 3s.

spacing and passing and movement and rebounding. I like where the game is going but I do lose some patience at times with the emphasis on threes. Like today, Toronto was 0 for 5 to start the game. All threes. All good looks off of good offense but they werent falling. Thst gets old quick lol

Yeah, not hitting the threes hurt the Pels today. Ball was like 1-9 from 3. That's just terrible. I'm still convinced the Pels are losing because Gentry isn't the right coach for this team. I hope the Pels front office makes a change there.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

Yeah, not hitting the threes hurt the Pels today. Ball was like 1-9 from 3. That's just terrible. I'm still convinced the Pels are losing because Gentry isn't the right coach for this team. I hope the Pels front office makes a change there.

I’m right there with you. Gentry has got to go.

 

[zeetes]

george gervin is always forgotten. i don't think anyone has mentioned him yet. he had a terrific career.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

george gervin is always forgotten. i don't think anyone has mentioned him yet. he had a terrific career.

Yeah, you gotta respect the Iceman.

 

[sfidc3]

I think the Spurs when they were winning titles and Golden State would be the ones closest to those teams of the 80s and 90s where they did everything well. Spacing and passing on offense and tough as nails on the defensive end. They were complete teams from top to bottom.

Agreed to some extent, but again, those teams didn't have HOFers at every position...

I don’t think it’s even a question, really. NBA defenses are absolutely more complex today (all of the different ways you have to be able to play screens, how precise you have to be when bringing double teams, and the versatility you need to have as a defender).

There are countless things that defenses do today that weren’t going on back then.

I can appreciate the aesthetic preferences someone might have, but I think that’s kinda as far as it goes.

Again, that’s not to say that there wasn’t any great defense being played; there absolutely was. And of course there were great teams (you mentioned the Celtics and Lakers). I’m speaking about defense in general.

I’d also argue that you’re underrating how much teams today move (both physical and ball movement) on offense.

Not only is it a question, it is patently untrue....lets agree to disagree. But the games I've watched there have been glimpses of team ball but still a lot of isolation stuff with a 3 point shooter dribbling down the clock....

To your last point I'm not underrating anything, I'm just simply not seeing this great, consistent ball movement from today's teams....

 

[RazorOye]

To your last point I'm not underrating anything, I'm just simply not seeing this great, consistent ball movement from today's teams....

What players and games and teams are you talking about?

Houston is obviously the outlier. They iso 20% of the team. The second most is Portland at 10%. But like I mentioned above, Lillard and CJ play well off each other and I think they struggle with where their big fits into the offense at times. And so they default to iso a bit more thN I would personally like.

but the rest of the teams are low. Toronto is a solid ball movement team. And they run 6% iso.
Derozan loves the iso. But in San Antonio he has to play in a system. And so they are 5.5% as a team.

that’s a huge change for him. I spent years watching him iso drive or just 2 man with JV in the post so that he could, essentially, iso.

I mentioned the Hear above as the most satisfying team to watch, for me, when it comes to ball movement. They are at 4.8% iso.

thats the second time I’ve gone through teams and players. This time I’ve added stats. Because I’m trying to see where you’re coming from and the teams and players you’re taking about. Aside from Houston of course.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

lets agree to disagree.

Yeah.

 

[sfidc3]

What players and games and teams are you talking about?

Houston is obviously the outlier. They iso 20% of the team. The second most is Portland at 10%. But like I mentioned above, Lillard and CJ play well off each other and I think they struggle with where their big fits into the offense at times. And so they default to iso a bit more thN I would personally like.

but the rest of the teams are low. Toronto is a solid ball movement team. And they run 6% iso.
Derozan loves the iso. But in San Antonio he has to play in a system. And so they are 5.5% as a team.

that’s a huge change for him. I spent years watching him iso drive or just 2 man with JV in the post so that he could, essentially, iso.

I mentioned the Hear above as the most satisfying team to watch, for me, when it comes to ball movement. They are at 4.8% iso.

thats the second time I’ve gone through teams and players. This time I’ve added stats. Because I’m trying to see where you’re coming from and the teams and players you’re taking about. Aside from Houston of course.

Where I'm coming from is that the quality of the game today is not what it was back in the 80's through the mid-late 90's.

Of course it is a different game today, the refs (and the NBA) have taken most of the physicality out of the game. Some like that and I understand it, offensive basketball can be very exciting to watch. Others (like me) miss the game I grew up with, the rivalries, the physical play....

The argument of best team of all time is literally impossible to even make sense out of because the 86 Celtics, 87 Lakers and 98 Bulls were playing a completely different game than the modern day Warriors....

It is fun to discuss but there is no way to prove who is right or wrong....

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

What players and games and teams are you talking about?

Houston is obviously the outlier. They iso 20% of the team. The second most is Portland at 10%. But like I mentioned above, Lillard and CJ play well off each other and I think they struggle with where their big fits into the offense at times. And so they default to iso a bit more thN I would personally like.

but the rest of the teams are low. Toronto is a solid ball movement team. And they run 6% iso.
Derozan loves the iso. But in San Antonio he has to play in a system. And so they are 5.5% as a team.

that’s a huge change for him. I spent years watching him iso drive or just 2 man with JV in the post so that he could, essentially, iso.

I mentioned the Hear above as the most satisfying team to watch, for me, when it comes to ball movement. They are at 4.8% iso.

thats the second time I’ve gone through teams and players. This time I’ve added stats. Because I’m trying to see where you’re coming from and the teams and players you’re taking about. Aside from Houston of course.

Yeah, when you look at isolation plays, the Rockets are 10% higher than the second most frequent ISO team. Pretty much the entire league is under 7% in terms of ISO plays. This isn't even the point I was initially responding to, but I'm legitimately flummoxed by some interpretations of the way the game is currently played vs years past.

ISO and pacing numbers say that offense is much more fluid than some of the years people are talking about. I think the ISO ball/less complex defense stuff is more due to aesthetic preferences about hard fouls and physicality than the on-court products.

The perception is that the "quality" of the NBA is worse, and everything works backward from there (intricacies of defensive schemes are downplayed, selfish/isolation ball is exaggerated, etc.). I think the increase in player agency and superstars having more power in their decisions about where they'll go also plays a factor.

It's like when some of the older NBA vets on tv would say "The Warriors would have been nothing 25-30 years ago. We would have just picked them up full-court and been physical with them." It's really not that simple (or accurate).

 

[DaveXA]

Yeah, when you look at isolation plays, the Rockets are 10% higher than the second most frequent ISO team. Pretty much the entire league is under 7% in terms of ISO plays. This isn't even the point I was initially responding to, but I'm legitimately flummoxed by some interpretations of the way the game is currently played vs years past.

ISO and pacing numbers say that offense is much more fluid than some of the years people are talking about. I think the ISO ball/less complex defense stuff is more due to aesthetic preferences about hard fouls and physicality than the on-court products.

The perception is that the "quality" of the NBA is worse, and everything works backward from there (intricacies of defensive schemes are downplayed, selfish/isolation ball is exaggerated, etc.). I think the increase in player agency and superstars having more power in their decisions about where they'll go also plays a factor.

I think the league is much more talented from top to bottom now than decades ago, and the difference between the winners and losers is narrower now.

It's all ultimately subjective though, so doing cross generational comparisons are pretty much impossible to do.

That said, we love making comparisons, so we will.