Let's talk about Kamara's injury and the management thereof (1 Viewer)

[Saint Spud]

I feel like we tried to be half-pregnant.

We wanted the threat of AK in the passing game to open up the middle of the field for Cook and others.

We also didn’t want to pass every time AK was in there, because it would be a “tell.”

So Kamara never fully healed and when he got closer to healthy, it seemed he never quite got back the mindset of plowing through people (whether it was health related or not).

 

[Meachemdat]

I've been thinking about it for a while.
I think it all boils down to this:

Payton gets in his own way.

Our offense is getting more and more reliant on packages and mismatches.
We seem to shy away from tempo and rythm (when we have more successful drives) in an attempt to create mismatches all over the field.

I, and I think most fans, are confused when we see a RB (Murray) cracking off 7 yards per carry, ride the pine all game. What's happening, is Sean needs Kamara to be a decoy/chess piece to free up someone else (these guys weren't winning their routes, which is why we saw so many dump offs).

We always have a top offense, so I can't really complain, but if I had one wish, it would be to move to more of a series type offense. Run Kamara for a series, Run Murray for a series. If Murray is running better, keep him in and put Kamara in for relief.

I think this is one of the big reasons we don't go out and target top flight WR's. We think we can get by with whoever because of how our offense operates to get players open.

Just my theory. It's the only thing I can come up with as to why you would sit a player on the bench that could have easily won you the game against the Vikings if you'd just committed to the run with him. Especially against his former team, he was already motivated....

 

[jbourque]

For whatever reason Payton didn't see Murray as the guy. And that is the only question. Why?

 

[Loose Cannon]

Our offense is getting more and more reliant on packages and mismatches.
We seem to shy away from tempo and rythm (when we have more successful drives) in an attempt to create mismatches all over the field.

I, and I think most fans, are confused when we see a RB (Murray) cracking off 7 yards per carry, ride the pine all game. What's happening, is Sean needs Kamara to be a decoy/chess piece to free up someone else (these guys weren't winning their routes, which is why we saw so many dump offs).

This is a really interesting post. Essentially saying that Kamara sets up the entire offense with the belief that large swaths of our passing game don't work without Kamara out there moving defenders around?

Interesting. And it definitely fits with the fact that we don't really have WRs that can create separation on their own (outside of Thomas). Good post.

 

[Jb25saints]

AK will be traded for draft capital.

we can not afford Ram, Lat, and AK! Unfortunately AK is my fav player but this makes sense to me.

 

[los226]

Murray killed it in his two games that he shouldered the workload. There was no reason to rush Kamara back if he was hurt.

 

[DMaestro]

To be fair, Kamara had a really good game against Tennessee and closed out the season well, so if this really was a question of Payton giving his injured studs time to round back into form he had to have felt validated going into the Wild Card game.

Of course we all know how that ended, but I'm sure many of us thought along with Payton that Old Kamara had finally re-emerged.

 

[44slayer]

I 100% disagree with the notions in the OP that he "plainly looked hurt" or he was "very obviously still hurt". Could he have been hurt? Yes. He sat out a few weeks so it could be. Brees sat out 5 weeks and came back and had a strong 2nd half the season. Cook was out the same period as Kamara and came back strong. Sure, every injury heals differently.

But I didn't see Kamara limping really. I didn't see him wincing in pain. Maybe he hides it well. But there was nothing I saw that was 'obvious'. He was for sure not the same guy. But the reason I think a lot of people said something was wrong with him mentally, or that he 'checked out' or was making business decisions is BECAUSE he didn't look obviously injured. If he "plainly looked hurt" there would have been no questions about his mental state or if he was saving himself for a contract.

What I did see was a guy that wasn't the same and there was no real indication as to why. Couldve been injury, although Payton said "no injury" in the postgame presser. I also saw a few times where Brees was visibly frustrated with Kamara, if it were an obvious injury, I cant see Brees getting frustrated with that. Brees reacted as if Kamara wasn't doing something he should've, or effort wasn't there. Its all a very odd situation. I also saw Payton put Kamara is some impossible spots with some atrocious play calls. Many of those plays were dead before Kamara had a chance.

 

[Loose Cannon]

I 100% disagree with the notions in the OP that he "plainly looked hurt" or he was "very obviously still hurt". Could he have been hurt? Yes. He sat out a few weeks so it could be. Brees sat out 5 weeks and came back and had a strong 2nd half the season.

So your assertions are:
- A high ankle sprain was fully healed in less than four weeks and Kamara was healthy after the bye
- A high ankle sprain is a comparable injury to a thumb injury

Correct?

 

[44slayer]

So your assertions are:
- A high ankle sprain was fully healed in less than four weeks and Kamara was healthy after the bye
- A high ankle sprain is a comparable injury to a thumb injury

Correct?

Not in the least. That's not even in the ballpark of what I said. I even said "every injury heals differently".

You said he was very obviously injured. I saw nothing at all that was obvious. He very well could have been. But it was NOTHING obvious. The reason people were talking about his mental state, or checking out, or business decisions was that there was nothing obviously wrong with him. No limping, no wincing. I am not saying, at all, that he wasn't. But calling it obvious is a stretch at best. Brees reactions seemed more frustration with him for effort, or routes, etc.

He wasn't the same guy no doubt. And it could've been injury. It could've been partially injury. We don't know. But I can say it is absolutely the reason people questioned his mental state and if he checked out is because there was no obvious injury on the field. If it were plainly obvious, everyone would say, he is still gimpy. Hopefully he heals up.

 

[SaintJ]

Yeah, what you're saying is sort of the conclusion I'm hoping not to arrive at.

Because if the above is really how it went down, that would be really, really poor management, wouldn't it?

In hindsight, yes, although I am not sure about adding the two reallys.

At the time, it looks like going with that path was a calculated risk that it would all fall into place, which maybe seemed easier and less risky than blowing up the whole thing (i.e., making Murray the lead back a la Ingram in 2017 and putting AK back in more of his 2017 role). Unfortunately, sometimes your status quo is riskier than a change, and that's one of the hardest decisions to make.

Payton's ability to think outside the box distinguishes him from his peers, and when he doesn't do it, he just reverts to the mean back with the other guys. So, yes, this is on Payton -- it didn't work out, and the better argument is that he should not have expected it to.

And, IMO it's not why we lost. Having said all that, we still should have beaten the Vikings and came damn close to doing so despite being flat, and I would have like our chances in the the following two games.

I have no problem with your analysis and conclusion(s), my emphasis on certain points may just be a little different.

 

[Loose Cannon]

In hindsight, yes, although I am not sure about adding the two reallys.

At the time, it looks like going with that path was a calculated risk that it would all fall into place, which maybe seemed easier and less risky than blowing up the whole thing (i.e., making Murray the lead back a la Ingram in 2017 and putting AK back in more of his 2017 role). Unfortunately, sometimes your status quo is riskier than a change, and that's one of the hardest decisions to make.

Payton's ability to think outside the box distinguishes him from his peers, and when he doesn't do it, he just reverts to the mean back with the other guys. So, yes, this is on Payton -- it didn't work out, and the better argument is that he should not have expected it to.

And, IMO it's not why we lost. Having said all that, we still should have beaten the Vikings and came damn close to doing so despite being flat, and I would have like our chances in the the following two games.

I have no problem with your analysis and conclusion(s), my emphasis on certain points may just be a little different.

Obviously we can't be certain of what would have happened with one variable changed.

But it sure seems like having that ridiculously strong screen game we had early in the year would have really neutralized that pass rush Minnesota was putting on Drew. Seattle was getting incredible pressure up the middle on Bridgewater and we just kept torching them with that screen to AK.

Hindsight, our lack of medical knowledge and all that notwithstanding.

 

[Stalwart385]

I 100% disagree with the notions in the OP that he "plainly looked hurt" or he was "very obviously still hurt". Could he have been hurt? Yes. He sat out a few weeks so it could be. Brees sat out 5 weeks and came back and had a strong 2nd half the season. Cook was out the same period as Kamara and came back strong. Sure, every injury heals differently.

But I didn't see Kamara limping really. I didn't see him wincing in pain. Maybe he hides it well. But there was nothing I saw that was 'obvious'. He was for sure not the same guy. But the reason I think a lot of people said something was wrong with him mentally, or that he 'checked out' or was making business decisions is BECAUSE he didn't look obviously injured. If he "plainly looked hurt" there would have been no questions about his mental state or if he was saving himself for a contract.

What I did see was a guy that wasn't the same and there was no real indication as to why. Couldve been injury, although Payton said "no injury" in the postgame presser. I also saw a few times where Brees was visibly frustrated with Kamara, if it were an obvious injury, I cant see Brees getting frustrated with that. Brees reacted as if Kamara wasn't doing something he should've, or effort wasn't there. Its all a very odd situation. I also saw Payton put Kamara is some impossible spots with some atrocious play calls. Many of those plays were dead before Kamara had a chance.

I agree. He didn't appear directly hurt. I'm sure he wasn't 100% but it's the same thing every NFL player fights through every season. If the doctors clear him to play and Kamara says he's ready and practices every day, then you play him.

I'm just beginning to think Kamara's playstyle or build doesn't go well with toughing out a full season. This is the longest stretch, but not the first time we've questioned what was up with Kamara. If he's not at his peak, not necessarily injured just a little stiff, it significantly hampers what he can do.

 

[Loose Cannon]

I agree. He didn't appear directly hurt. I'm sure he wasn't 100% but it's the same thing every NFL player fights through every season.

Every NFL player has a high ankle sprain every season?

 

[Stalwart385]

Every NFL player has a high ankle sprain every season?

I think it was mostly healed. He was probably fighting through some pain and stiffness. Not enough to show the pain or a limp though. So Im sure similar to what every NFL player is fighting through.