Loomis in the HC Search: More Important to Get It Right Than Do It Quick (2 Viewers)

[EGLSShin]

Love Payton and appreciate him for giving us fans everything he had over the past 16 years. That being said, sometimes his play calling would drive me crazy. Young Payton was always going for the kill shot. Older Payton would become a lot more conservative which allowed teams back into the game. I won't miss that about him.

 

[meily]

Love Payton and appreciate him for giving us fans everything he had over the past 16 years. That being said, sometimes his play calling would drive me crazy. Young Payton was always going for the kill shot. Older Payton would become a lot more conservative which allowed teams back into the game. I won't miss that about him.

Young Payton had talent on offense, old Payton had to get the most out of the talent on offense because all the real talent was on defense.

 

[meily]

Uh, Ok. And I doubt they just gonna jump on one person without having an actual process that includes inter yin which all the finalists get to pitch their vision for returning the Saints to championship contenders.

I also doubt that most billion dollar enterprises are making their most important hires based on first impressions of only one or two candidates.

The point is some people seem to think this is about maintaining while others (myself included) think this is a rebranding which does not mean you take a step back but the lead dog is different. The players remain the coaches are different.

To think that if you don't keep the same coaches that the team is going to be worse is ridiculous, this is football nothing is foreign to these guys, it's not an overwhaul as Loomis noted but things are not going to be the same it can't be, we are in the search for a new coach, Payton is gone we have to stop trying to keep his legacy going when it's over

 

[Judge_Smails]

Thw point is some people seem to think this is about maintaining while others (myself included) think this is a rebranding which does not mean you take a step back but the lead dog is different. The players remain the coaches are different.

To think that if you don't keep the same coaches that the team is going to be worse is ridiculous, this is football nothing is foreign to these guys, it's not an overwhaul as Loomis noted but things are not going to be the same it can't be, we are in the search for a new coach, Payton is gone we have to stop trying to keep his legacy going when it's over

I agree on having any predetermined commitment to the status quo. That is how good organizations begin to turn mediocre and then bad.

If they do an exhaustive search and select a candidate, I am on board whoever it is, but if they just try to rubber stamp the process because they already know they want to make an internal hire, then I think things could turn bad, sooner rather than later.

 

[Mississippi Saints Fan]

He has been an assistant coach for 16yrs....he may not be head coach material let alone the lead man in controlling an offense.

We have to let go of the past these guys are paid handsomely so these coaches losing their jobs is not like you and me losing ours, Carmichael run may be over because if he can't get a job if let go by the saints it really says alit about why he was not retained to begin with.

I’m certainly not calling for him to be the head coach. Honestly, I’m not calling for anything. I’m simply saying that your arguments are purely assumption-based. You assume he can’t call an offense without Payton or that he. can’t innovate. You assume he can’t get another job anywhere else. All this is based on what? He’s been here for 16 years. That says something. If there’s one guy I’m taking a hard look at keeping around, it’s him. That’s all.

 

[Mississippi Saints Fan]

I also won’t be heartbroken if Carmichael leaves. I’m just saying, it’s senseless to call for guys to be replaced just for the heck of it, but that’s just my opinion. We will get along one way or the other.

 

[St. Widge]

If the rumors are true about Flores not getting along with his coaching staff, I don't want him anywhere near the Saints. We don't need that kind of drama. It's partly why I'm hoping Leftwich somehow gets snatched from Jacksonville. That apparently still isn't a done deal. I'd much rather Allen than Flores, unless those rumors aren't true. Hopefully Loomis can see through all that and make a good decision, whatever that may be.

Yep. I think Allen and Flores are close in terms of who is better. Flores has a better record as a HC. But, Flores has a better organization around him that Allen did. The Raiders were a dumpster fire in the front office when Allen was there and he never really got to build his team. Flores got all the assets he needed to build his team and he did a good job. I think maybe Allen could do just as good a job with the assets and organization around him. Miami isn't an amazing organization, but they are a lot better than the Raiders were when Allen had the job.

But, although the are IMO close, if the stories about Flores fighting with his GM and owner, as well as not communicating with his staff since Thanksgiving, are true, I want no part of Flores as the Saints HC.

Overall, I would rather a young offensive guru coach but I'm not sure that guy is out there. So, if it's between Allen and Flores, Flores' issue in Miami makes me want to go with Allen.

 

[dutar76]

If Dennis Allen is the next coach it's not because the Saints did due diligence it's because they used to Rooney rule to make it look like they looked elsewhere and DA was always the guy.

There is no way DA is a better candidate than Flores, its about the Saints feeling they have all they need inhouse (which is fine) but it would be obvious they did that all for show if DA is hired as the head coach

I don't know that any of us can say that DA is or isn't a better candidate than Flores or any of the other guys they're bringing in. Wins and losses would be the obvious easy way to compare some of those that have been head coaches before, but I don't think that's bulletproof at all. Flores was 24-25 in 3 seasons as HC in Miami. Dennis Allen was 8-28 in 2.25 years with the Raiders. Sounds simple enough. But throw in some context. What kind of roster did they inherit? How much capital (draft and cap) did they have to work with? How much say-so did ownership and the FO allow them to build the team to match their vision?

I don't know all the answers to these questions, but I seem to remember Dennis Allen being handed a rough bag when he got the Raiders. Seems like the Dolphins had their problems as well when Flores took over, the main one being they were in a division literally owned by the Patriots before he got there. I read some stuff that makes me wonder about Flores' style and personality. It's media so who knows how much spin was put on all that?

As a side case for past performance maybe not equating to future results... DA has spent the past 6 years as DC under one of the best coaches to have ever done it. He was part of the 2nd major culture change of the Sean Payton era. He is a part of that culture. I'd like to think that maybe it's possible he might have learned and grown in those 6 years. Judging who he is based on his win-loss record with a crap team dang near a decade ago doesn't seem like a good way to go about it.

And due diligence doesn't necessarily mean that you don't start out with a coach that is all but certain to be your choice. And it doesn't have to just be a Rooney-rule thing if you bring in a minority coach for an interview. Heck, all 3 coaches slated to be interviewed other than DA are minorities. I think it's Dennis Allen is the choice, and the other coaches we will interview will have a chance, but they'll have to impress Mickey and the football operations department an awful lot to beat him out.
Just my opinion.

 

[St. Widge]

Yeah, whether it's Allen HC or DC, he should have a lot of control over the defensive side. That said, maybe there's someone on staff he trusts to fill the DC role if he's the HC. No idea who that would be though.

If Allen is the HC, I think it's likely that Richard or Nielson gets the DC position. Probably Richard. But, I think if Allen loses out on the HC job he is likely gone assuming there is an opening for a DC somewhere else. I can't see him wanting to stay after getting passed over and I would think a new coach would want to bring his own guys in.

 

[meily]

I agree on having any predetermined commitment to the status quo. That is how good organizations begin to turn mediocre and then bad.

If they do an exhaustive search and select a candidate, I am on board whoever it is, but if they just try to rubber stamp the process because they already know they want to make an internal hire, then I think things could turn bad, sooner rather than later.

That's why I think if they hire DA as the head coach we are in trouble because there is no way you do an extensive search then hire your DC. I would also include whomever the coach is if they don't retain the defensive staff that is also a mistake because that side of the ball is set it's the offense that needs rebuilding/adjusting.

 

[meily]

I’m certainly not calling for him to be the head coach. Honestly, I’m not calling for anything. I’m simply saying that your arguments are purely assumption-based. You assume he can’t call an offense without Payton or that he. can’t innovate. You assume he can’t get another job anywhere else. All this is based on what? He’s been here for 16 years. That says something. If there’s one guy I’m taking a hard look at keeping around, it’s him. That’s all.

It's the fact he's been with a winning organization lead by a future HOF catch yet nobody thought to pluck Carmichael from under Payton to lead their franchise....that's why my "assumption" is based on

 

[JackDiesel]

He has been an assistant coach for 16yrs....he may not be head coach material let alone the lead man in controlling an offense.

We have to let go of the past these guys are paid handsomely so these coaches losing their jobs is not like you and me losing ours, Carmichael run may be over because if he can't get a job if let go by the saints it really says alit about why he was not retained to begin with.

He also oversaw the 3rd best offense in the NFL in 2012 when Sean Payton was suspended. I'd say he's just fine as the lead man controlling the offense.

 

[DaveXA]

That's why I think if they hire DA as the head coach we are in trouble because there is no way you do an extensive search then hire your DC. I would also include whomever the coach is if they don't retain the defensive staff that is also a mistake because that side of the ball is set it's the offense that needs rebuilding/adjusting.

It just seems like you don't want Allen as HC, even if he's the best candidate. It's just weird that you're starting with the premise that no matter what Loomis does, Allen can't possibly be the best choice. I don't really understand it.

 

[DaveXA]

It's the fact he's been with a winning organization lead by a future HOF catch yet nobody thought to pluck Carmichael from under Payton to lead their franchise....that's why my "assumption" is based on

Iirc, Carmichael has been happy being OC for the Saints years and hasn't expressed any interest in a HC position that I'm aware of. So I'm not sure why we're worried about him in the HC discussion. Has he expressed interest in the Saints HC position?

 

[Mississippi Saints Fan]

It's the fact he's been with a winning organization lead by a future HOF catch yet nobody thought to pluck Carmichael from under Payton to lead their franchise....that's why my "assumption" is based on

Again, we’re not talking about him leading our franchise or any other franchise.. at least I’m not. I’m simply responding to your assumptions that he can’t innovate and call an offense, as a coordinator, without Sean Payton, which he did do in 2012 when we had a top ranked offense. Yet, because you assume without a doubt that he can’t, he should be sent packing immediately. I view it differently, and though I’ve already stated why, I’ll do so again.

He’s learned from one of the greatest to ever do it for 16 years. He’s had his share of calling the offense successfully. Was it Payton’s scheme? Yes. It absolutely was. Is he capable of implementing his own creative play-calls and adapting to different personnel? I would think so, but I’m not around him every day like some of the others have been for a very long time. But, whoever becomes HC can’t discount that he’s been part of such a successful offense for a long time and has surely learned a ton from one of the all-time greats. Does that mean he automatic should stay? No. But should he automatic go just because Payton did? I also say no. That’s all I am saying. We can agree to disagree.