Mahomes fumble ruling changed to incomplete pass (rules question) (1 Viewer)

[mjcouvi]

Mahomes arm was no doubt moving forward, but it appeared to me the ball was knocked out of his hand (his hand was still on the ball). If the ball was knocked out of the hand before the ball left the hand, how is it that there was a pass? I thought a pass does not occur until the ball leaves the hand? The arm moving forward with ball in hand isn't a pass. I can't find the clip to look at it again, so maybe I'm missing something...where am going wrong? Did the ball actually leave his hand before it was hit by the defender?

 

[2009ring]

The ball in hand doesn't matter, it's the arm moving forward that determines whether it's a pass or not.

That's how we ended up with the tuck rule if you remember all those years ago. Brady was in the act of passing, but stopped, the ball slipped out of his hand as he stopped.

 

[SweetT]

The ball never left his hand. The defender’s hand was definitely in front of ball, but his arm was moving forward, so it’s considered a batted ball/incompletion

 

[dtc]

No, it never got out of his hand and I cannot understand how that's not a fumble. I get that if he had dropped it it would be an incomplete "attempt", but he never got the ball off so it should have been called a fumble imho.

 

[NMS]

I was wondering the same thing. I think it still falls under the rule of his hand/arm moving forward. Still I think it is a fumble. The ball wasn't released while his arm was going forward but it was knocked out and went backward while his arm was going forward.

 

[SaintsIn2009]

No, it's considered a pass once the ball and hand start forward motion. That's exactly what happened. Arm moving forward and that initiates the passing motion, therefore, it's a pass. So, ball moving forward equals pass

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

I tried bringing this argument up yesterday and was hit with "if the arm is moving forward it's a pass" responses. While this may be true, I don't ever remember seeing this exact play happen. Usually when the ball gets knocked out of a QB's hand and they're trying to determine if it's a fumble they're looking to see if the arm is moving forward and which direction the ball went, forward or backward, because the ball actually left the QB's hand on it's own volition. This play was different, the ball was in Mahomes control, albeit arm moving forward, but while in his control the ball was pushed backward and in my opinion should be a fumble.

And, let's say we go with the argument that the arm moving forward constitutes a pass, well, if you throw a pass backwards, it's a fumble and the ball is live. The ball left Mahomes' hand backwards, so how is this not a fumble in that regard?

 

[mjcouvi]

No, it's considered a pass once the ball and hand start forward motion. That's exactly what happened. Arm moving forward and that initiates the passing motion, therefore, it's a pass. So, ball moving forward equals pass

By this definition every time a QB pump fakes he's throwing a pass.

 

[St.Fury]

By this definition every time a QB pump fakes he's throwing a pass.

If he were to lose the ballin the process of the pump fake, then yes, as long as the hand is moving forward.

 

[mjcouvi]

If he were to lose the ballin the process of the pump fake, then yes, as long as the hand is moving forward.

Right, once the ball leaves the QBs hand and it's forward motion it's a pass. It's not the forward motion with ball in hand that makes a pass, it's the ball leaving the hand. During the play in question the ball left Mahomes hand because it was knocked out of his hand.

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

If he were to lose the ballin the process of the pump fake, then yes, as long as the hand is moving forward.

The ball left Mahomes' hand backwards. At no point was the ball moving forward independent of Mahomes' hand. He had control until the ball was knocked out BACKWARDS. Whether the NFL calls it that or not, it's a fumble all day every day. IMO, they got caught in a situation they've not seen and made the wrong ruling.

 

[26ISTHEMAN]

This has been the rule forever. Once the hand starts moving forward, it's considered a pass. End of discussion.

 

[mjcouvi]

The ball left Mahomes' hand backwards. At no point was the ball moving forward independent of Mahomes' hand. He had control until the ball was knocked out BACKWARDS. Whether the NFL calls it that or not, it's a fumble all day every day. IMO, they got caught in a situation they've not seen and made the wrong ruling.

I'd have to see the play again, but I'm pretty sure it still went forward. That shouldn't matter though because the ball was knocked out of his hand by the defender. He never threw it.

 

[26ISTHEMAN]

Right, once the ball leaves the QBs hand and it's forward motion it's a pass. It's not the forward motion with ball in hand that makes a pass, it's the ball leaving the hand. During the play in question the ball left Mahomes hand because it was knocked out of his hand.

That's your definition of a pass, not the NFL's. Theirs is hand moving forward with ball = pass.

 

[mjcouvi]

This has been the rule forever. Once the hand starts moving forward, it's considered a pass. End of discussion.

That's not if the ball is knocked out of the hand though. If the defender hits the forward moving arm of the QB and the ball flies forward, yeah it's a pass. But in this case that's not what happened. The ball was knocked directly out of the hand. The defender hit the ball before it was out of Mahomes hand.