Micheal Moore (1 Viewer)

St. PJ

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This thread is really out of boredom. There is nothing new in the SSF, and currently I am watching one of Moore's documentaries. Between college, the Marine Corps, and offshore, over the last ten years, I have heard many differing opinions on Micheal Moore. It seems most people are polarized; they either love him or hate him. Furthermore, any material the guy puts out that can be termed controversial is either supported by those who agree with his views, or condemned by those who claim to hate him.

Personally, I am probably a cynic. I don't mean to be; I certainly didn't start this way. I remember growing up and believing in the motto "and Justice for all", and that anything is possible with hard work and a can do attitude. I believed hook line and sinker the things I learned in history, economics, social studies, ect. I believed we were the greatest nation and every other patriotic thing written or taught about our nation. With higher education came disbelief. Disbelief in most things I learned in public shool, disbelief in what I saw on the news, disbelief in most things we are patriotic about. I guess I became predisposed to believing conspiracy theories and negative perspectives about the direction we are moving towards as a nation concerning the economy, foriegn policy, and consumerism. In this way I have become cynical, and for the record, I like Micheal Moore.

If I had been born 30 years earlier, I would probably have very different views. The danger in my cynicism is that I use negative thoughts as a foregone conclusion as to why my dreams will fail, or as an excuse not to make an effort or not to get politically involved with many causes. Maybe people like Micheal Moore contribute to this, maybe I am a product of my generation where according to Oprah, everyone is a victim. One of my favorite quotes comes from I believe G.K. Chesterson. I think it was him who said something to this effect: I could fill a book with thousands of pages about what is wrong with the world today, but I could also sum it up with two words-- I AM."

The point is personal accountability. We all like to point the finger or cast the stone, and certainly there are many injustices and inequalities abound, but do we really ask ourselves what have we done to better the world? In one of my confessions, I told the priest how disheartened I was about the state of things, the direction things were moving, and how I cynical I have become, believing that our great moral decline over the past 40 years coupled with our utilitarian society, dumbed down education system, and shift from country vs country to corporations vs everyone who isn't filthy rich have left me hopeless, thinking that the only way to fix the world and our country is another American Revolution, the people vs the powers that be. My priest told me that Christ said in the end, nations will rise against nation, many bad things will happen, ect ect ect, but the MOST important thing and only thing we should ever worry about is what we do concerning our brother and God. Focus on feeding the hungry, ministering to the sick and elderly, ect ect ect. In other words, focus on "what have I done", becuase in God's eyes, that the only thing that will matter.

Well, I believe we should do the things we have been commanded to do by Christ, such as loving and tending to our brother and God. This seems like rhetoric, but how often do we pass a beggar on the THRWY and not give him a dollar? Or how often do we go to town and buy things we really don't need, using three gallons of gas in our 39K truck to buy a gallon of milk? How much do we consider what the cost of our consumerism does to other countries and our own? How many of us hate illegal immigrants trying to have the American Dream as our ancestors once did? How many of us truly care about life in the "ghettos" and empathize or try to understand what environmental factories create a thug. I know there are examples of less fortunate who rise above and become successful. I know there are tons of people who do things the right way and feel offended to have to take care for those who don't make an effort to take advantage of oppurtunities or make sacrifices to get ahead. I can see both sides and have empathy with each.

My point is our infastructure is such that we HAVE to have poor people, we have to have less fortunate to do the undesirable things like digging ditches or going to war. We have to have a lesser class in order to have an elite class. For all of this to work, for corporate America to succeed, for gas prices to skyrocket, for companies to do away with pensions and lay off people who have invested their lives to building said companies, laws have to be passed, the constitution has to be changed, and peole have to not take notice. We have bought into what we have learned, taught not to question, and have become mentally lazy. Again, as long as we can work at our jobs, have insurance, go to WalMart and buy whatever we want, what do we care? What happens when we do all that is right and the system fails us, like for instance, someone buys our company and our retirement gets sold out from underneath us? Or our insurance company refuses to cover what we always thought it would?

How does any of this tie into Micheal Moore? The guy asks the questions, shows a problem, and in some cases shows documented proof of why the problem is there. I don't buy into everything screaming conspiracy I hear, but if I see smoke, shouldn't I look for a fire? If the guy says something that could be true, shouldn't I at least investigate it or hear him out? I have very close friends who for the longest time already had their minds made up about people like Micheal Moore and believed he was an unpatriotic liar trying to smear good people becuase George Bush told them so, or the NRA told them so. After a few years, I finally convinced them to watch one of his documentaries, then together we went to the library and researched accusations he made. We even read congressional hearings and have found that nothing the guy has said is false. Maybe he is arrogant at times, maybe his approach and presentation comes off wrong, but the guy does ask questions and make points that need to be made, and everything he has said can be verified and proven. It seems people were shooting the messenger.

The funny thing about truth is that it always comes to light. It can be buried deeply, forgotten for years, but eventually it bubbles up and reveals itself. People looked at Christ and said "that is just the carpenter's son", never mind what the guy was saying, even thought at that time it was very radical. I don't mean to call Moore holy, just simply saying don't always judge a message by its bearer or how he presents it. I urge each of you to go to a library and aks a question, feed your mind, go through the mental sweat of evaluating and investigating exactly what you believe and WHY. Look at both sides of the argument and form your own conclusion. Don't watch CNN or Fox News and regurgitate what they say, or even what Micheal Moore says, simply, look at all the evidence and come to your own conclusion. Don't be afraid to consider that things we believed passionately all of our lives can be false.

As a nation, we are scared. We may be free, but how many of us exercise freedom of thought? How many of us believe that we aren't what we were created to be, that this nation is no longer what it was founded to be, and how many of us are honest with ourselves as to our role in why that is so? How many of us truly consider that from his point of view, Bin Laden and a very valid reason to kill innocent people? Or that from our passiveness, it is our fault for not holding Congress accountable for neglecting us and catering to the elite? Or the fact that the whole election process and democracy is flawed to the point that other countries really take care of thier citizens better than we do? We are all quick to take on side or the other, wether it be politics or religion, but how many of us are open minded enough to consider that maybe all sides are wrong, and istead of polarizing every little issue, we are going about it and looking at everything from the completely wrong perspective?

All I am saying is we all need to do our part, and that goes deeper than simply choosing a side and being passion. We need to direct our passion to a constructive cause. We need an intellectual revolution, and we shouldn't ostracize those who at least take as step and ask why not.
 

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DadsDream

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You're about four years late, pjgaryjr.

The subject of $Moore$ and his pandering for money got beaten to death on this board a long, long time ago.
 

bigdaddysaints

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i agree with pjgaryjr. A lot of people beleive stuff they read in the paper and hear on the news as fact. That is one big plus of the internet these days. It makes it so much easier to research things you hear or read. When I don't understand something, I research it. I don't jus read one article about it and say, well, now I understand, I read several things about the subject, different views to help me understand. The internet has a lot of non-useful things, but it also has the ability to have information at your fingertips at anytime. A lot of people have never watched any of Moore's movie's because they are too conservative and think that its all spin. I have said this many times, we have become a nation of sheep. But we all need to stand up for our beleifs, no matter what they are. Ask why, question things. Don't just accept things as fact because you are told to. The less people question authority, the worse this country will become. Don't vote for a candidate just because they are Repulican or Democrat, vote for a candidate because you like the candidate, not because of their party. The only way this country will change for the better is if the people show these politicians we want our country back...

I hope this is kinda where you were going with this thread...
 
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St. PJ

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You're about four years late, pjgaryjr.

The subject of $Moore$ and his pandering for money got beaten to death on this board a long, long time ago.

I really am sure that you are right. The meat and potatos of the post was really about how I can't believe, get outraged even, at the fact that many of us do not investigate what we believe, even to the point of being extremely passionate and closed minded on many issues concerning politics and religion. For instance, I am catholic. Today, I can tell you exactly why I believe what I believe, where aspects and dogmas of the religion I practice come from, and why I do some of the things I do concerning my spirituallity. Growing up, and for the first few years of my adulthood, I did most of these things out of habit and did not believe in half of them or truly live them. At a point in time, September 11, to be exact, I got nervous and for the next two years studied theology. Today I my beliefs are very concrete, and if asked what I thought was the biggest problem with my religion, I would say that it is the majority of Catholics, or christians even, do not know or understand what they believe, therefore can not live it, grow in it, or defende it. The same can be said concerning our political beliefs.

The reason I used Moore as an example was becuase I actually had the TV on him and had thoughts I have had for years and figured that name would get people to look. It was very spur of the moment, and perhaps I should have used a more pertinent example to get people to look. Sorry. I do agree that he is sort of an opportunist, but that still does not change the very good points he does explore, nor does it change the wrong doings of certain politicians or bad trends concerning political issues that exist. Even if he is a slob who preys off the weak minded for the purpose of getting rich, what he says must be examined if there is any inkling of plausability in it.
 

blackadder

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This thread is really out of boredom. There is nothing new in the SSF, and currently I am watching one of Moore's documentaries. Between college, the Marine Corps, and offshore, over the last ten years, I have heard many differing opinions on Micheal Moore. It seems most people are polarized; they either love him or hate him. Furthermore, any material the guy puts out that can be termed controversial is either supported by those who agree with his views, or condemned by those who claim to hate him.

Personally, I am probably a cynic. I don't mean to be; I certainly didn't start this way. I remember growing up and believing in the motto "and Justice for all", and that anything is possible with hard work and a can do attitude. I believed hook line and sinker the things I learned in history, economics, social studies, ect. I believed we were the greatest nation and every other patriotic thing written or taught about our nation. With higher education came disbelief. Disbelief in most things I learned in public shool, disbelief in what I saw on the news, disbelief in most things we are patriotic about. I guess I became predisposed to believing conspiracy theories and negative perspectives about the direction we are moving towards as a nation concerning the economy, foriegn policy, and consumerism. In this way I have become cynical, and for the record, I like Micheal Moore.

If I had been born 30 years earlier, I would probably have very different views. The danger in my cynicism is that I use negative thoughts as a foregone conclusion as to why my dreams will fail, or as an excuse not to make an effort or not to get politically involved with many causes. Maybe people like Micheal Moore contribute to this, maybe I am a product of my generation where according to Oprah, everyone is a victim. One of my favorite quotes comes from I believe G.K. Chesterson. I think it was him who said something to this effect: I could fill a book with thousands of pages about what is wrong with the world today, but I could also sum it up with two words-- I AM."

The point is personal accountability. We all like to point the finger or cast the stone, and certainly there are many injustices and inequalities abound, but do we really ask ourselves what have we done to better the world? In one of my confessions, I told the priest how disheartened I was about the state of things, the direction things were moving, and how I cynical I have become, believing that our great moral decline over the past 40 years coupled with our utilitarian society, dumbed down education system, and shift from country vs country to corporations vs everyone who isn't filthy rich have left me hopeless, thinking that the only way to fix the world and our country is another American Revolution, the people vs the powers that be. My priest told me that Christ said in the end, nations will rise against nation, many bad things will happen, ect ect ect, but the MOST important thing and only thing we should ever worry about is what we do concerning our brother and God. Focus on feeding the hungry, ministering to the sick and elderly, ect ect ect. In other words, focus on "what have I done", becuase in God's eyes, that the only thing that will matter.

Well, I believe we should do the things we have been commanded to do by Christ, such as loving and tending to our brother and God. This seems like rhetoric, but how often do we pass a beggar on the THRWY and not give him a dollar? Or how often do we go to town and buy things we really don't need, using three gallons of gas in our 39K truck to buy a gallon of milk? How much do we consider what the cost of our consumerism does to other countries and our own? How many of us hate illegal immigrants trying to have the American Dream as our ancestors once did? How many of us truly care about life in the "ghettos" and empathize or try to understand what environmental factories create a thug. I know there are examples of less fortunate who rise above and become successful. I know there are tons of people who do things the right way and feel offended to have to take care for those who don't make an effort to take advantage of oppurtunities or make sacrifices to get ahead. I can see both sides and have empathy with each.

My point is our infastructure is such that we HAVE to have poor people, we have to have less fortunate to do the undesirable things like digging ditches or going to war. We have to have a lesser class in order to have an elite class. For all of this to work, for corporate America to succeed, for gas prices to skyrocket, for companies to do away with pensions and lay off people who have invested their lives to building said companies, laws have to be passed, the constitution has to be changed, and peole have to not take notice. We have bought into what we have learned, taught not to question, and have become mentally lazy. Again, as long as we can work at our jobs, have insurance, go to WalMart and buy whatever we want, what do we care? What happens when we do all that is right and the system fails us, like for instance, someone buys our company and our retirement gets sold out from underneath us? Or our insurance company refuses to cover what we always thought it would?

How does any of this tie into Micheal Moore? The guy asks the questions, shows a problem, and in some cases shows documented proof of why the problem is there. I don't buy into everything screaming conspiracy I hear, but if I see smoke, shouldn't I look for a fire? If the guy says something that could be true, shouldn't I at least investigate it or hear him out? I have very close friends who for the longest time already had their minds made up about people like Micheal Moore and believed he was an unpatriotic liar trying to smear good people becuase George Bush told them so, or the NRA told them so. After a few years, I finally convinced them to watch one of his documentaries, then together we went to the library and researched accusations he made. We even read congressional hearings and have found that nothing the guy has said is false. Maybe he is arrogant at times, maybe his approach and presentation comes off wrong, but the guy does ask questions and make points that need to be made, and everything he has said can be verified and proven. It seems people were shooting the messenger.

The funny thing about truth is that it always comes to light. It can be buried deeply, forgotten for years, but eventually it bubbles up and reveals itself. People looked at Christ and said "that is just the carpenter's son", never mind what the guy was saying, even thought at that time it was very radical. I don't mean to call Moore holy, just simply saying don't always judge a message by its bearer or how he presents it. I urge each of you to go to a library and aks a question, feed your mind, go through the mental sweat of evaluating and investigating exactly what you believe and WHY. Look at both sides of the argument and form your own conclusion. Don't watch CNN or Fox News and regurgitate what they say, or even what Micheal Moore says, simply, look at all the evidence and come to your own conclusion. Don't be afraid to consider that things we believed passionately all of our lives can be false.

As a nation, we are scared. We may be free, but how many of us exercise freedom of thought? How many of us believe that we aren't what we were created to be, that this nation is no longer what it was founded to be, and how many of us are honest with ourselves as to our role in why that is so? How many of us truly consider that from his point of view, Bin Laden and a very valid reason to kill innocent people? Or that from our passiveness, it is our fault for not holding Congress accountable for neglecting us and catering to the elite? Or the fact that the whole election process and democracy is flawed to the point that other countries really take care of thier citizens better than we do? We are all quick to take on side or the other, wether it be politics or religion, but how many of us are open minded enough to consider that maybe all sides are wrong, and istead of polarizing every little issue, we are going about it and looking at everything from the completely wrong perspective?

All I am saying is we all need to do our part, and that goes deeper than simply choosing a side and being passion. We need to direct our passion to a constructive cause. We need an intellectual revolution, and we shouldn't ostracize those who at least take as step and ask why not.

Good stuff.

:9:
 

Saintshizzle

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Read every word and agree wholeheartedly.

Michael Moore is just a catalyst. We live in a "shoot the messenger" society when people hear or read things that they disagree with or do not want exposed. You would probably be a victim to that in this thread yourself, unless me typing this thwarts it away from you.

Forget Michael Moore, the person, but you cannot just forget the things mentioned in

Bowling for Columbine
Farenheit 911
Sicko

Very, very strong points made and need investigating...just don't hold your breath while the investigation starts. I want to be able to read the next excerpt conjured-up during a slow SSF period.
 

Saintshizzle

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Oh, and to the religious/interpersonal aspect...keep the faith.

Just when human beings are about to be written-off...something miraculous happens either outwardly or from within. See: Noah, Abraham, Joshua, Isiah, Job,

Jesus

Good segway to start getting dressed for church...thanks again for those words.
 

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As a documentarian, Michael Moore relies on anecdotes and self-selected data, which convey a bias, not truth. It becomes propaganda.

As a propagandist, the first objective is to make the effort succeed as public policy. Think Leni Riefenstahl, the most renown filmmaker of the genre. None of Moore's movies have succeeded by that criterion. He fails by both measures; biased documentarian and ineffectual propagandist.

He is, however, rich beyond measure, particularly with overseas sales. He is feted by those too young to get on the Stalinist fellow traveler train- we all need to follow someone. The boy from Flint lives in a palatial townhome in Manhatten. Life is good, which I suppose is the point.

His television programs were his most excellent work. He is best with short poined humorous pieces. The movies are turgid and humorless, reaching their nadi with the interview of a Alzheimer's-affected Charleon Heston in "Bowling for Columbine".
 

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Pjgaryjr I'm 51 years old. I've raised four daughters to adulthood.

All of my beliefs have been questioned, interrogated, turned inside out, turned upside down and microscopically analyzed repeatedly.

I've concluded that life can be broken down into several truisms...

1. You can never have too much toilet paper.

2. In Louisiana, you can slaughter cockroaches by the thousands, but you'll never eliminate them completely.

3. Always say, "You're right, honey." Agreeing with your wife's opinion, no matter how far-fetched and misconcieved it is, beats listening two hours of her explaining it.

4. Men are linear thinkers: "The sky is blue, the grass is green, life is good."

5. Women are divergent thinkers: "The sky is blue...not the shade of blue of the dress my sister wore to that horrible party my parents threw for her 17th birthday, but when I turned 17 they didn't throw me a party and they gave her a Rolex but I never got one, not that I ever really wanted a Rolex, because I would have rather had a new saddle for my horse, but they never got me one because my mother didn't approve of me having a horse and wanted to get rid of it because it was my father's idea in the first place and she didn't agree and I just wanted a saddle and my horse was so sweet, she'd do the funniest things, like she had a habit of putting one hoof in the feed bucket if you put it on the ground, so I had to get her a feed bucket with clips that you hang from the fence and because I bought the bucket and my mother didn't want me to, she said the feed bucket was my birthday present, but my sister got a Rolex and I never got one and the feed bucket was the shade of blue that the sky is, not the shade of blue of that terrible dress that my sister wore at that horrible party that my parents gave her on her 17th birthday but they never gave me one.

5. Being a Saints fan for decades brings with it the very real possiblility that you could go to your grave without ever seeing a Saints Super Bowl. My father did. Hence my poster name here on SR.com.

Regarding Moore, I posted a story years ago about a Western journalist who was meeting with some Jordanian ministers. He was dumbfounded to discover they were making decisions based on the notion that Moore's F/911 film was a truthful news documentary.

When he told them that it was a farce and a criticism of the administration and not true, they were dumbfounded. They couldn't understand the concept of political satire and wanted to know why Moore hadn't been thrown in jail or executed...like he would have in their heavily censored monarchy.
 
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I did watch the Charleston Heston interview. He basically caught Heston being racists, and Heston realized this and did not want to admit to it or stick his foot in his mouth. There was No evidence of Heston's "Alzheimers" during the interview, or during the NRA rallies he called directly after children were shot and killed by accident in towns like Flynt.

I do find Moore arrogant, and I really hate arrogance. I do not like the way he presents a lot of his points, however, I do agree with a lot of his points. Sicko is probably the best one of his documentaries to watch, becuase he doesn't act as arrogant or ******** in it and deals not with the people who don't have insurance, but rather, the people who do. Also disbands a lot of the propaganda we believe concering healthcare provided in other countries like Canada of France.
 

blackadder

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I did watch the Charleston Heston interview. He basically caught Heston being racists, and Heston realized this and did not want to admit to it or stick his foot in his mouth. There was No evidence of Heston's "Alzheimers" during the interview, or during the NRA rallies he called directly after children were shot and killed by accident in towns like Flynt.

I do find Moore arrogant, and I really hate arrogance. I do not like the way he presents a lot of his points, however, I do agree with a lot of his points. Sicko is probably the best one of his documentaries to watch, becuase he doesn't act as arrogant or ******** in it and deals not with the people who don't have insurance, but rather, the people who do. Also disbands a lot of the propaganda we believe concering healthcare provided in other countries like Canada of France.

I've spent a lot of time abroad, particularly in Scandinavia. People are healthy and generally happy and do not wish to change their universal health care system. They selected it democratically and they continually elect to keep it.

Doctors are allowed to give private service on the side if people are willing to pay. The system works well as evidenced in the mortality and health statistics of the people it serves.

The one complaint they have, the one trade off, is that for elective surgery -- cosmetic procedures or non-life threatening issues -- they have to get in a line and wait for months to get it.

I personally have seem my own family subjected to a lot of medical quackery and I've seen people ruined by medical bills and struggle to maintain insurance for their family.

When your system costs the most and objective medical statistics on life expectancy and general health says you are ranked 42nd in the world, then something is wrong. Is it a complete coincidence that all the countries that have universal health care surpass the United States and rank near the top?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/12/AR2007081200113.html

Universal health care can work. It does work for lots of other people. But it is in doubt whether we are capable of making work because the will to do so is not there on the part of important vested interests.

That's the essential element of the debate, IMO, not that "the system is inefficient and in and of itself can't work." The system does work for people who want to make it work.
 

Shawn

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As a documentarian, Michael Moore relies on anecdotes and self-selected data

That's true of every single documentary ever made, every news story ever assembled, etc.

That's a completely meaningless statement.

The rest of that post is pretty weak too. I think you know it, so I'm going to pass on by this thread.
 
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