Mora tenure vs. Payton tenure (1 Viewer)

[guidomerkinsrules]

Those 49ers and Giants teams were infinitely better than the current dominant teams of the modern NFL. Heck, and you had the Skins as well. Mora did as well as could be asked, he didn't have free agency to help him until his last few years, so unless you drafted well you were SOL in terms of bringing in talent. We had just come out of the Mecom years of ownership, and talent wasn't there.

Mora wasn't as successful as Sean, but it's not because he was incapable of it, he just had a hell of a deck stacked against him.

...not sure - that sounds like it would be very interesting statistical analysis
is it easier/harder to climb 5-6 very big hills or 12-15 medium sized hills?

 

[El Caliente]

...not sure - that sounds like it would be very interesting statistical analysis
is it easier/harder to climb 5-6 very big hills or 12-15 medium sized hills?

Depends on the size of the hills as the mountains, right? If those hills are really just levees while the mountains are the Himalayas it adds a bit of perspective.

Honestly though, this topic is much like "How successful would Archie Manning/The Dome Patrol be if they played in this system?" or "How successful would this system be in the old school football days when it was anything goes on defense?"

Interesting conversations.

 

[UFCSaint]

If Billy Joe Hobert hadn't busted his achilles that 1998 team just might have been respectable.

Against the Rams. He looked like the light had finally turned on for him and was playing a near perfect game. What might've been...

 

[sfidc3]

Is this really a question?

Mora's teams lost three home playoff games in six years, plus one more on the road. that's 0-4. With his 0-2 at Indy, it's the second-worst coaching playoff record in NFL history.

Payton's teams have gotten to the playoffs five times, and been knocked out in the first round only once, in an absolute fluke of a game. And if his hard-headed DC had just figured out in the fourth quarter of the game I can't even talk about that the only player on the other team who could beat us was Vernon Davis, we'd have had 36 wins and two Lombardis over a three-year stretch.

OR, I could sum up the vast gulf between Payton and Mora in one word: Ambush.

Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket. Mora versus Payton is the textbook example of very good versus great.

Well put, Mora was a very good regular season coach but perhaps the worst playoff coach in NFL history. He simply refused to make the adjustments necessary during playoff games...when the intensity ratcheted up he (and staff like Carl Smith) were not able to get it done. And he refused to take the chances/risks necessary to give the team a chance to go further, probably the most risk-averse coach in NFL history....Payton is pretty much the anti-Mora....

 

[GW93]

I don't get to watch the game today, so I was reminiscing about the Mora years. Of course Payton is the #1 coach around here, but how much separates him from Mora at this point? Perhaps the big strike against Mora is he couldn't win a playoff game in Indy either, but on the other hand we haven't seen Payton as a head coach anywhere else (without Brees). I will just look at what both accomplished with the Saints. Some might argue that Haslett ought to be thrown into the mix since he at least won a playoff game, but as I will later post, Payton and he did not have to face the strong NFC that Mora did.


Mora made it into his 11th season before the meltdown. Payton seems to be here at least for at least his 11th season (loss of 2012).

Mora brought the Saints to their first winning season, playoff appearance, and division title. Payton brought the Saints to their first conference championship and Super Bowl championship.

Mora's teams allowed the fewest points in the league in back to back seasons. Payton's teams scored the most points in the league in back to back seasons (interestingly not in 2011).

Mora had the best linebacking group ever for almost 8 of his seasons. Payton has had a HoF QB for all of his seasons.

Mora had a football for almost all of his seasons; he did not have the final say on personnel when Finks was here. Payton has had an accountant GM for almost all of his seasons; he should have the final say on personnel.

Mora's teams were built on franchise that had good defenses but bad offenses. Finks and he made them great defenses and at least solid offenses out of drafting and USFL pickups. Payton's teams were built with an excellent first year of drafting and the best free agency signing ever if also a huge risk.

Mora had the the 49ers the NFC West, winning three Super Bowls over his tenure plus thad the best record in the league in two others. Twice Mora's teams had a record that was better than all of the AFC but could not win the NFC West. Payton was able to get a first round bye with only 10 wins. Only the Panthers have made it to the Super Bowl out of the NFC South during his tenure.

Mora had four playoff seasons. Payton has five. Mora had two winning seasons that weren't playoff teams. Payton didn't win the division when a team with a losing record did.

Key personnel decisions were part of the downfall of both. Mora's teams had the disgruntled Hebert addressed poorly by the Walsh trade. Payton's teams have had bad free agent signings that were either cut causing dead money or under-performing if retained.

At the end of Mora's tenure, his teams reversed with good offenses and bad defenses as there were major personnel changes due to aging rosters and the beginning of free agency. Paytons teams have retained very good offenses (with the same HOF QB) but have had historically bad defenses.

I guess in closing, if Payton is #1, Mora #2, and Haslett #3, how far apart is it? Is Mora closer to Haslett or to Payton?

Mora: No post-season victories

Payton: See my sig pic.

 

[SoggyBottomBoy]

You know you are right, right?

Mora came in at the end of the Mecom years, and had to gut the team of players who were NFL players, but not really. He had to rebuild that team through the draft and plan B free agents. He couldn't go out and sign a Drew Brees, or a Brett Favre, or what have you. He had to coach up inferior players until he could bring in better talent through the draft. It really isn't even fair to compare how Sean and Jim built their teams. One had somewhat an easier path to getting the team back to respectability than the other.

Actually, Plan B free agency didn't come into play until the back end of Mora's tenure. And I'm of the belief it was Mora's downfall. We had a very good roster picked apart by other teams when Plan B hit. Mora complained about it instead adapting to it. By the time he did, we were a thinner team talent-wise.

Mora and Finks built a very good team in the old system with the benefit of the collapsed USFL and Mora's knowledge of it.

As for the OP's question - Payton > Mora. And I really appreciated the Mora years.

 

[tarusman28]

Jim Kelly wasn't available to us. His rights were held by the Bills (who drafted him), so when the USFL folded, he went to them.

Warren Moon was never coming here. He chose Houston because the coach there was his college coach, so he was familiar with the system.

As for other USFL players, when given the chance, Mora picked the best he could.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_NFL_Supplemental_Draft_of_USFL_and_CFL_players

Mora took over a team that had never had a winning season.

Ok. You are right about Kelly and Moon.

But, Dude when Payton took over it was Post-Katrina. The NFL didn't even know if New Orleans could support the Saints. Also, Payton said that he wasn't sure if any players wanted to come to New Orleans because of the aftermath of Katrina. Winning seasons were one thing be postseason wins are on another level of success.

 

[El Caliente]

Actually, Plan B free agency didn't come into play until the back end of Mora's tenure. And I'm of the belief it was Mora's downfall. We had a very good roster picked apart by other teams when Plan B hit. Mora complained about it instead adapting to it. By the time he did, we were a thinner team talent-wise.

Mora and Finks built a very good team in the old system with the benefit of the collapsed USFL and Mora's knowledge of it.

As for the OP's question - Payton > Mora. And I really appreciated the Mora years.

I agree give me Sean over Mora, but it would be interesting to see what Mora would do given the same opportunity. Mora's ceiling under this current system was probably his Indy years, and his Indy years weren't bad, he just suffered the same postseason fate there as he did here. Who knows what might have been had he made changes to his staff (that seems to be a broken record for some coaches).

Ok. You are right about Kelly and Moon.

But, Dude when Payton took over it was Post-Katrina. The NFL didn't even know if New Orleans could support the Saints. Also, Payton said that he wasn't sure if any players wanted to come to New Orleans because of the aftermath of Katrina. Winning seasons were one thing be postseason wins are on another level of success.

After not having a winning season in 20 years, a winning season felt like we had won the Super Bowl. To a Browns or Jags fan a winning season is as elating as a Super Bowl. We were worse than those guys are now.

Obviously Sean has had more success, and he won us a Super Bowl, and obviously Sean dealt with Katrina, but to say we were a less desirable location to him than we were to Mora isn't exactly fair either. Neither man walked into the worlds most desirable job, but at least Sean's team had tasted success, and was more rounded than the scrap heap that Mora picked up. Plus there is the Free Agency piece that benefited Sean in speeding up the process.

 

[tarusman28]

After not having a winning season in 20 years, a winning season felt like we had won the Super Bowl. To a Browns or Jags fan a winning season is as elating as a Super Bowl. We were worse than those guys are now.
[/B] Sorry but I'm not buying this one. Having a winning season when you experienced it before is one thing but to compare it to winning super bowl is like comparing a nat to an elephant. I'm pretty sure that they didn't have any parades celebrating Jim Mora's winning seasons.


Obviously Sean has had more success, and he won us a Super Bowl, and obviously Sean dealt with Katrina, but to say we were a less desirable location to him than we were to Mora isn't exactly fair either. Neither man walked into the worlds most desirable job, but at least Sean's team had tasted success, and was more rounded than the scrap heap that Mora picked up. Plus there is the Free Agency piece that benefited Sean in speeding up the process.

True. Payton didn't walk into an ideal situation but he knew about New Orleans in '06 with the devastation and all. Very few head coaches had to deal with a major obstacles that existed in NO. Payton had a larger obstacles to deal with compared to Mora.

 

[tinman]

Hi y'all;

People forget that Mora had the benefit of a criminally underrated DC; Steve Sidwell! i got to speak w/many of the coaches/players of that time(5-6x per week). Steve was scapegoated after the team gutted the Dome Patrol & the offense got a pass. He never really recovered after that. He went on to be the DC of a few teams, but never had the success as under the Saints.

Mora also has Jim Finks. Until he got sick, there was a great turnaround in the team's culture. It seems that when he was diagnosed, it took the wind out of the sails.

Mora took a team from the depths of obscurity, brought them respectability that verged on greatness. Payton took that, brought in Brees, applied the emotion of Katrina recovery & got us to the promised land!

Despite the roller coaster ride of Payton, he tops Mora.

A

 

[sfidc3]

Hi y'all;

People forget that Mora had the benefit of a criminally underrated DC; Steve Sidwell! i got to speak w/many of the coaches/players of that time(5-6x per week). Steve was scapegoated after the team gutted the Dome Patrol & the offense got a pass. He never really recovered after that. He went on to be the DC of a few teams, but never had the success as under the Saints.

Mora also has Jim Finks. Until he got sick, there was a great turnaround in the team's culture. It seems that when he was diagnosed, it took the wind out of the sails.

Mora took a team from the depths of obscurity, brought them respectability that verged on greatness. Payton took that, brought in Brees, applied the emotion of Katrina recovery & got us to the promised land!

Despite the roller coaster ride of Payton, he tops Mora.

A

I would hardly call a team without a single playoff win during a coaches tenure "verging on greatness"...Again Mora as a regular season coach was very good, but perhaps the worst playoff coach in the history of the NFL...he never understood that to win in the playoffs you have to take chances...

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Depends on the size of the hills as the mountains, right? If those hills are really just levees while the mountains are the Himalayas it adds a bit of perspective.

Honestly though, this topic is much like "How successful would Archie Manning/The Dome Patrol be if they played in this system?" or "How successful would this system be in the old school football days when it was anything goes on defense?"

Interesting conversations.

sure, and that's why statistical analysis would be needed, we can guess/speculate how big the perspective hills are
- i wish basketball allowed for some comparison, but with such a long schedule, you really aren't going to have many "catch fire" teams like you can in the NFL

 

[El Caliente]

sure, and that's why statistical analysis would be needed, we can guess/speculate how big the perspective hills are
- i wish basketball allowed for some comparison, but with such a long schedule, you really aren't going to have many "catch fire" teams like you can in the NFL

True. They are fun conversations to have though. Its sad we are having them now during the regular season instead of during the offseason, but dems da breaks when your season goes sucky sucky.

 

[HobBeh]

I would hardly call a team without a single playoff win during a coaches tenure "verging on greatness"...Again Mora as a regular season coach was very good, but perhaps the worst playoff coach in the history of the NFL...he never understood that to win in the playoffs you have to take chances...

I argue that with his best team he took too many chances. The Saints lost against the Eagles because they passed too much and did not have a good enough running game. That said, why is anyone asking if I asked about choosing mora over Payton? It was more about the distance to second place.

 

[tinman]

I would hardly call a team without a single playoff win during a coaches tenure "verging on greatness"...Again Mora as a regular season coach was very good, but perhaps the worst playoff coach in the history of the NFL...he never understood that to win in the playoffs you have to take chances...

hence the "verging" portion of the quote. they had 2nd highest regular season record for a decade; just happened to be in the same div as montana. that is the very definition of "verge". they stepped up, got in the game & couldn't finish.

A