My Definitive Thread on Perpetual Defensive Problems! (1 Viewer)

Swimmer

Medsamust Saint Fan
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
16,806
Reaction score
24,234
Age
67
Location
Slaughterhouse Five
Offline
There will be nothing new here, just trying sum-up what some smart people have been saying in multiple single point threads over the past 6 months.

The problems we have on defense are unfortunately systemic. There is no quick fix to our defense. After GW left, every year our defense is either near or historically bad. imvho, Here's what I strongly believe are the systemic problems.

1) SP does not know how to draft defensive players. As the best offensive mind in the past decade, he is clueless at defense and kickers. This is not a criticism. I want to keep him for years. All of us have our strengths and weaknesses. That's just being human. My mom was the only perfect one when she was with us - God bless her soul :9:

2) It all starts at the top. For the Saints, we have no real GM. Loomis is a money and contract master, but he knows nothing about player personnel. The opposite is an Ozzie Newsome. On NFL teams, the GM is above the head coach. Effectively with the Saints, SP is HC and GM. So he has no one to watch over his back and help him see and fix his weaknesses = Defense and FG Kicker. SP cannot reach his full potential greatness without a strong player personnel GM who knows how to build strong defenses. In fact, not having a strong GM with defensive expertise is doing SP a disservice.

3) Too many of our defensive position and special team coaches are just not very good. They don't know how to select and definitely not develop and coach-up players. I don't need to names again. Here's where a really good GM would also step-in. He would not care about SP's long-term loyalty, which is very admirable, to his coaching buddies. 10-years is an extremely long body of work for these 3 coaches and it is self-evident these are not quality NFL coaches. They seem like great guys and good people and good community people. But are we totally going to waste a Top 5 HOF QBs last few year(s)?

These are my opinions. These are is no way intended to represent facts. And to the Smarties, "No these are not Pete's ideas." Personally I love the attitude of this defense and the heart with which they play. But we will likely set new records in historical badness once again.

Systemic fixes are almost always quite painful. But for the Saints team, fans and even SP, Benson needs to address the root causes, however painful that may be. Is there anybody left in the Seahawks FO who would make a good GM? Who else would be good candidates?
 

bclemms

More than 15K posts served!
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
33,246
Reaction score
43,148
Age
13
Location
Jackson, ms
Offline
The defensive problems are very easy to see.

1) Need a good edge rusher.
2) Need better LB's and at least a couple with speed.
3) Need better corners.



Yeah, I know, injuries.

Assuming we stay healthy at CB and assuming these young guys will continue to progress to our expectations and we will be good there. Problem is, we cant not address corner because Swann and Williams have proven to have major injury concerns.

LB we just have to find someone that can evaluate talent better then address the position.

For the edge rusher we have to consider Kikaha as a guy that will be a bubble type player coming off his 3rd ACL and address the position. Id much rather Kik come in, stay healthy while taking the position by surprise than rely on him and be back in this position again.

Problem is, good pass rushers, good corners and quality LB's with athletic ability are hard to find, expensive in free agency and usually very high draft picks. The upside is you really cant have enough good corners or pass rushers and they have trade value. If we treated corners, LB's and pass rushers like we do RB's and just stock up we would be so much better because of it.
 

Taurus

More than 15K posts served!
VIP Contributor
Joined
Dec 20, 1997
Messages
26,099
Reaction score
15,944
Age
52
Location
Yacolt, WA
Online
We have no pass rush. None. Haven't since GWIII left. Cam Jordan is a good all-around end, but he's nobody's Pat Swilling. The other three DL positions may as well not exist for all the pressure we get.
Without consistent pressure, without needing to double-team at least one guy, opposing offenses can do whatever the hell they want.
 
OP

Swimmer

Medsamust Saint Fan
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
16,806
Reaction score
24,234
Age
67
Location
Slaughterhouse Five
Offline
We have no pass rush. None. Haven't since GWIII left. Cam Jordan is a good all-around end, but he's nobody's Pat Swilling. The other three DL positions may as well not exist for all the pressure we get.
Without consistent pressure, without needing to double-team at least one guy, opposing offenses can do whatever the hell they want.
Couldn't agree more. I'm trying to get at the reason this has been a problem for 4 years. Taking a flyer on Byrd and Browner were one off attempts and expensive failures. We need a GM who can put in place, hopefully, the infrastructure and system to generate consistent positive results.
 

Saint Kamara

Formerly SaintSproles and SaintReggie
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
37,326
Reaction score
47,787
Age
56
Location
Austin, TX
Offline
Not getting much out of that $11 million per we are paying Cam Jordan. He needs to step up big time.
 

Goatman Saint

Subscribing Member
Platinum VIP Contributor
Joined
Apr 18, 1999
Messages
22,196
Reaction score
19,936
Age
49
Location
Between here and there
Offline
Not getting much out of that $11 million per we are paying Cam Jordan. He needs to step up big time.


Then you obviously are looking at numbers and not what he is. Cam is an all around DE. He plays the run well. Holds the edge well. Rushes the passer effectively, but is that half step slow. He gets good pressure, but without a speed guy on the other side, he is not going to do it alone. Put a good rusher on the other side and Cam will be back in that double digits. Right now the only other rushing threat is Fairley. Shut down those two and who is left? I'm not meaning to dis our talent, but that other DE/OLB whoever they want to rush with is just not cutting it. But, you are right. Cam needs his bookend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

More than 15K posts served!
VIP Contributor
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
17,082
Reaction score
30,424
Offline
2) It all starts at the top. For the Saints, we have no real GM. Loomis is a money and contract master, but he knows nothing about player personnel. The opposite is an Ozzie Newsome. On NFL teams, the GM is above the head coach. Effectively with the Saints, SP is HC and GM. So he has no one to watch over his back and help him see and fix his weaknesses = Defense and FG Kicker. SP cannot reach his full potential greatness without a strong player personnel GM who knows how to build strong defenses. In fact, not having a strong GM with defensive expertise is doing SP a disservice.
Saints assistant GM heaps praise on rookie 2nd-rounders Michael Thomas, Vonn Bell | The Draft Wire


I don't think you are giving Ireland enough Credit for assuming that role on the drafting side.
 

BiloxiSaint1

Veteran Starter
VIP Contributor
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
5,223
Reaction score
11,838
Offline
There will be nothing new here...

These are my opinions. These are is no way intended to represent facts. And to the Smarties, "No these are not Pete's ideas." Personally I love the attitude of this defense and the heart with which they play. But we will likely set new records in historical badness once again.
I don't know, Swimmer. Without Pete from the gym weighing in, I really don't know how much stock to put in this opinion.
 

LombardiGras

Hall-of-Famer
Joined
Dec 24, 2013
Messages
4,864
Reaction score
4,326
Offline
2) It all starts at the top. For the Saints, we have no real GM. Loomis is a money and contract master, but he knows nothing about player personnel. The opposite is an Ozzie Newsome. On NFL teams, the GM is above the head coach. Effectively with the Saints, SP is HC and GM. So he has no one to watch over his back and help him see and fix his weaknesses = Defense and FG Kicker. SP cannot reach his full potential greatness without a strong player personnel GM who knows how to build strong defenses. In fact, not having a strong GM with defensive expertise is doing SP a disservice.
I actually agree with this point. Loomis is a finance expert, his speciality is how to manipulate the salary cap. Before being promoted to GM his role was to make numbers work, not to make personnel decisions. He does not have the football expertise to build a team. So even though he is the head of these decisions, he has to rely on the input from his subordinates who are more knowledgable about football and player evaluation. And Loomis is head of basketball operations for the Pelicans, so not only is he under-qualified to be an NFL GM, he has another full time job to contend with. Plus the Saint's owner is in no condition to exert influence. Its definitely a weird situation.
 

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

More than 15K posts served!
VIP Contributor
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
17,082
Reaction score
30,424
Offline
I actually agree with this point. Loomis is a finance expert, his speciality is how to manipulate the salary cap. Before being promoted to GM his role was to make numbers work, not to make personnel decisions. He does not have the football expertise to build a team. So even though he is the head of these decisions, he has to rely on the input from his subordinates who are more knowledgable about football and player evaluation. And Loomis is head of basketball operations for the Pelicans, so not only is he under-qualified to be an NFL GM, he has another full time job to contend with. Plus the Saint's owner is in no condition to exert influence. Its definitely a weird situation.
He's the interesting thing to that. The guy they were relying on for a lot of those drafts that have gone bad was Ryan Pace. Who is no longer with the team. If you look at the Bears last two drafts since he's been the guy they aren't anything to cry home about.

Our one draft this year trumps anything Pace has done with the bears. I think that says a lot but I think it's being ignored to a point here that we remodeled the entire scouting department and hired Ireland. The 2015 draft was stil using some of Pace's and the old scouts information. The 2016 draft was all the new scouts and Ireland and look how it turned out
 

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

More than 15K posts served!
VIP Contributor
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
17,082
Reaction score
30,424
Offline
CHICAGO BEARS: GM Ryan Pace and head coach John Fox, both in their first year with Chicago, are intent on rebuilding the Bears with a bunch of intelligent, hard-nosed football players with non-stop motors. Fox, in particular, covets explosive big-bodied athletes at every position, which is why the Bears' draft features some of the top testers in pre-draft workouts. Kevin White is a dynamic pass catcher with exceptional speed, quickness and burst. He is a natural vertical stretch receiver who could blossom as a WR1 in the Windy City opposite Alshon Jeffery. Defensive tackle Eddie Goldman is a behemoth on the interior, but he plays light on his feet and provides the Bears with a run-stuffer/pocket-pusher at the point of attack. Offensive lineman Hroniss Grasu and running back Jeremy Langford didn't command a lot of attention during the pre-draft process, but each is a rock-solid prospect with the potential to contribute immediately as a role player. GRADE: A-

http://www.espn.com/blog/chicago-be...ears-draft-picks-analysis-for-every-selection

The above is the 2017 draft. Outside of Jordan Howard/Leonard Floyd this draft class has been relatively quiet. There is time for guys to develop but I think...part of the issue with the last few years walked out of the door to be the GM for the Bears.



http://www.nfl.com/player/eddiegoldman/2552489/profile

Eddie Goldman is playing about as well as John Jenkins right now. Meanwhile Tyeler Davison is getting all types of attention from Random GM's about how he's a plugger, does damage in the run game, and doesn't give up ground in only his 2nd year.

Takes time to dig out of such a deep whole of bad drafts/FA signings.
 

Attachments

crosswatt

Gone Fishing.
Staff member
Administrator
VIP Contributor
Joined
Jul 10, 2001
Messages
32,282
Reaction score
46,065
Location
Chesapeake, VA
Offline
He's the interesting thing to that. The guy they were relying on for a lot of those drafts that have gone bad was Ryan Pace. Who is no longer with the team. If you look at the Bears last two drafts since he's been the guy they aren't anything to cry home about.

Our one draft this year trumps anything Pace has done with the bears. I think that says a lot but I think it's being ignored to a point here that we remodeled the entire scouting department and hired Ireland. The 2015 draft was stil using some of Pace's and the old scouts information. The 2016 draft was all the new scouts and Ireland and look how it turned out
Not to a point. It is almost universally ignored and replaced with some form of a "we need to clean house" rant way too often. The fact is, they did. And we as fans are seeing some promising players on the team as a result.

Of course, I would have loved Leonard Floyd, but you can't draft them all.
 

ELLIASJWILLIAMS

More than 15K posts served!
VIP Contributor
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
17,082
Reaction score
30,424
Offline
Not to a point. It is almost universally ignored and replaced with some form of a "we need to clean house" rant way too often. The fact is, they did. And we as fans are seeing some promising players on the team as a result.

Of course, I would have loved Leonard Floyd, but you can't draft them all.
Just using my knowledge of D fronts, and what we are attempting to build Rankins was the better fit because the weakside of the D isn't as important as the strong side. Playing an under/under principles would have possibly warranted Floyd but wanting to build an over requires a very good 3tech, where as the under can put an average 3Tech in positions to win by freeing him up for 1 on 1's consistenly. 3Tech in an over isn't afforded that luxury thus the need for a higher pick/better talent & the reason why you sign a guy like Fairley as a role player then Draft Onyemata.

That and we'll we weren't expecting Kikaha to be injured and had already invested a 2nd round in him.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Similar threads



Headlines

Top Bottom