My Views on Winston and Payton's Shift Yesterday (1 Viewer)

[Dillonsp]

Pretending Jamies hasn’t improved is also a false narrative, everyone knows he is not there yet, but lets see how he does once we get some players back on offense….

From my post before that: "I hope winston continues to improve". So not sure who is pushing that narrative, but that isn't applicable to me. And my post was a response to a post that cherry picked stats to compare Winston to Brees as if Winston is playing better, so not everyone knows Winston is not there yet. My post added additional stats and facts that were ignored in that comparison. I doubt Winston will ever be remotely close to Brees ability to read a defense. Winston also has not shown he can consistently pass with anywhere near the accuracy of Brees. Those are some of Brees' best qualities that made him the QB he was.

I have seen improvement and I hope Winston plays lights out when Michael Thomas returns, but I can't ignore the flaws that I still see from his old ways. The unnecessary risks (some of which luck has fallen our way), trying to force big plays when other WRs are open, sporadic accuracy (mixed in with some of the prettiest passes you will see), questionable decisions, poor reads, and ball security are still issues. The TD/turnover stat line looks good on paper, but if you go back and watch the games, we've caught some lucky breaks with our WRs making a play on questionable passes and/or DBs dropping easy picks. I'm not saying Winston hasn't improved, but his game is still inconsistent with concerning flaws

 

[Taker597]

From my post before that: "I hope winston continues to improve". So not sure who is pushing that narrative, but that isn't applicable to me. And my post was a response to a post that cherry picked stats to compare Winston to Brees as if Winston is playing better, so not everyone knows Winston is not there yet. My post added additional stats and facts that were ignored in that comparison. I doubt Winston will ever be remotely close to Brees ability to read a defense. Winston also has not shown he can consistently pass with anywhere near the accuracy of Brees. Those are some of Brees' best qualities that made him the QB he was.

I have seen improvement and I hope Winston plays lights out when Michael Thomas returns, but I can't ignore the flaws that I still see from his old ways. The unnecessary risks (some of which luck has fallen our way), trying to force big plays when other WRs are open, sporadic accuracy (mixed in with some of the prettiest passes you will see), questionable decisions, poor reads, and ball security are still issues. The TD/turnover stat line looks good on paper, but if you go back and watch the games, we've caught some lucky breaks with our WRs making a play on questionable passes and/or DBs dropping easy picks. I'm not saying Winston hasn't improved, but his game is still inconsistent with concerning flaws

It's a process and unless you're elite. You're inconsistent. I think most people were really weren't prepared for the whole developing a QB is really like.

All in all... This is probably the most challenged Winston has ever been in his whole career and he hasn't bottomed out at all. He hit adversity and continues to bounce back from it. He hasn't reached that low quality of play since week 2. The trend line has consistently been going the right direction with no weapons.

Winston has been playing with an arm Behind his back and he's slowly learning to win with it. Which is an encouraging sign.

Is the instant gratification that a bunch of QB snobs want... No. Can't help that, but at the same time... No one is walking in that door playing at Drew Brees level at day one.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

"Defenders dropping easy INTs"

Checks tape:

GB - nope - got bailed out by a weak penalty, but it is what it is.
Car - nope, they caught the INTs
NE - nope
NYG - nope
Wash - nope - they caught the bad ball

Methinks you're just saying what you're saying just to say it.

 

[dtc]

Yeah he's not getting a lot of help from the receivers right now. It will be interesting to see what he does with the starters back. If the receivers can create just a little separation I think we'll see improvement. So far the throws just haven't been there most of the time.

And he's eaten the ball or tucked and run a whole lot when there's been nothing there. I'd bet he has more rushing attempts so far this year than all of his last year. I don't think the decision making is all that bad. I think it's predicated on a complete lack of receiving options and as conservative as he can be.

 

[Dillonsp]

"Defenders dropping easy INTs"

Checks tape:

GB - nope - got bailed out by a weak penalty, but it is what it is.
Car - nope, they caught the INTs
NE - nope
NYG - nope
Wash - nope - they caught the bad ball

Methinks you're just saying what you're saying just to say it.

So you watched 5 games in 20 minutes? It’s there along with missed opportunities by the opposing defense and/or getting bailed out by the WR.

We are 31st in passing yards per game. That is not above criticism. I’m not saying winston can’t be the future, but he does have flaws that need improvement. If you think winston has played flawless, I’m wasting my time.

 

[Taker597]

So you watched 5 games in 20 minutes? It’s there along with missed opportunities by the opposing defense and/or getting bailed out by the WR.

Ummm... He's actually right. And the last I look... Winston isn't anywhere close to leading the league on Turnover worthy passes

 

[Dillonsp]

Ummm... He's actually right. And the last I look... Winston isn't anywhere close to leading the league on Turnover worthy passes

Uh look at his turnover worthy passes and then look at his pass attempts. Then compare that with the others. He is at the top of the list when that’s factored in if I read your chart right

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

So you watched 5 games in 20 minutes? It’s there along with missed opportunities by the opposing defense and/or getting bailed out by the WR.

We are 31st in passing yards per game. That is not above criticism. I’m not saying winston can’t be the future, but he does have flaws that need improvement. If you think winston has played flawless, I’m wasting my time.

Nah...but there is this thing called youtube where you can find all of a particular player's passes from a given week....maybe 4 mins or so a game with how little pass plays we called.

Re being 31st in yards...Ever think that we might be 31st in passes attempted as well?

Oh...look at that, well i'll be damned:
(googled the stat after I made the previous statement BTW)



GD you Jameis Winson for Sean Payton only calling 23 passing plays per game! Shame on you Jameis!

 

[Dillonsp]

Nah...but there is this thing called youtube where you can find all of a particular player's passes from a given week....maybe 4 mins or so a game with how little pass plays we called.

Re being 31st in yards...Ever think that we might be 31st in passes attempted as well?

Oh...look at that, well i'll be damned:
(googled the stat after I made the previous statement BTW)



GD you Jameis Winson for Sean Payton only calling 23 passing plays per game! Shame on you Jameis!

The fact that there are only 23 passing plays per game doesn’t speak well for your position, wise guy…

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

The fact that there are only 23 passing plays per game doesn’t speak well for your position, wise guy…

how so?

 

[dtc]

So you watched 5 games in 20 minutes? It’s there along with missed opportunities by the opposing defense and/or getting bailed out by the WR.

We are 31st in passing yards per game. That is not above criticism. I’m not saying winston can’t be the future, but he does have flaws that need improvement. If you think winston has played flawless, I’m wasting my time.

Nobody said he's played flawlessly.

What we've said is that under the circumstances he's been pretty good; efficient even and statistically marvelous.

The ever ending rumble about bad decisions has been silly given the fact that he's thrown so few times and when nothing has been there he's thrown it away and paid the statistical price. He's tucked and run amazingly well and given the disarray of our OL, he's amazingly made very few boneheaded plays.

Simply put, given that we have a garbage bag for a receiving corps and a hodgepodge OL over the past 5 weeks, it's freaking amazing that he's not got 10 ints and 8 fumbles.

 

[Taker597]

The fact that there are only 23 passing plays per game doesn’t speak well for your position, wise guy…

You’re definitely a Dillon if I ever meet one. Lol

 

[Super44]

I think Winston is both better and worse than many want to make him out to be.

I don't post nearly as much as I used to (outside of the betting thread), but I was on the Winston bandwagon in the preseason. Still, I think he's worse than the raw stats show. The offense was terrible on 3rd down yesterday, and Winston did go through a 1-10 stretch where his passes just looked ugly aside from the hail mary. There's a lot of work left to do regarding consistency and mechanics. When Winston starts to feel pressure, his mechanics break down, and that's where the high throws come from.

BUT, I think overall he's better than his detractors are saying. He's got the prettiest deep ball we've had since the early Brees era. He's also reading the field well. Mechanics can be fixed and pressure can be alleviated. But the ability to read a defense and make the right throw (ON TIME) is a much tougher nut to crack (see: Taysom Hill).

I'm encouraged, not just by Winston's ability to shake off mistakes and make the right decisions, even if the throws themselves need work, but by the fact that Payton seems to care about him. If Payton was reserved to Winston not being the guy, he wouldn't be chewing him out after every miscue. Clearly, he wants this guy to get better.

Lastly, I think the trust in Winston that Payton now has was illustrated by us being backed up on our own one yesterday. Instead of just giving up, we let Winston throw downfield three straight plays. Yeah, it was a punt, but it showed that we aren't holding Winston back anymore. He's been unleashed, for better or worse. We'll have to get the full season in to truly know what we have.

He takes too long to process the coverage, once the play has evolved. If his primary is covered, his processing of who the secondary should be, slows down and he ends up holding the ball too long, thus allowing the pass pressure to get to him. This is something that has haunted him in the past and continues now. It would certainly help though, if the Saints had Thomas and TQS on the field. But that is wishful thinking, similar to wishing for Davenport and Kwon to be on the field together. Oh well. But for Winston, he is not having a bad year, if you go by TD/int ratio, which was one of his main issues. Also good for him this year, is when those INT’s are happening. The Carolina game was just flat out a horrendous situation, with the COVID issues of the coaches and coming off an away home game and second week away from all of the team being away from home due to Ida. I give Winston a pass in the Carolina game, just like I do with the rest of the players. All said, he is the best we have ATM and we need to stay behind him and hope when Thomas and TQS both return, Winston will only get better. But the Thomas and TQS thing, I have very little hope, either will be playing for the Saints again.

 

[sfidc3]

From my post before that: "I hope winston continues to improve". So not sure who is pushing that narrative, but that isn't applicable to me. And my post was a response to a post that cherry picked stats to compare Winston to Brees as if Winston is playing better, so not everyone knows Winston is not there yet. My post added additional stats and facts that were ignored in that comparison. I doubt Winston will ever be remotely close to Brees ability to read a defense. Winston also has not shown he can consistently pass with anywhere near the accuracy of Brees. Those are some of Brees' best qualities that made him the QB he was.

I have seen improvement and I hope Winston plays lights out when Michael Thomas returns, but I can't ignore the flaws that I still see from his old ways. The unnecessary risks (some of which luck has fallen our way), trying to force big plays when other WRs are open, sporadic accuracy (mixed in with some of the prettiest passes you will see), questionable decisions, poor reads, and ball security are still issues. The TD/turnover stat line looks good on paper, but if you go back and watch the games, we've caught some lucky breaks with our WRs making a play on questionable passes and/or DBs dropping easy picks. I'm not saying Winston hasn't improved, but his game is still inconsistent with concerning flaws

I wish folks would stop comparing him to Brees, its just a foolish, futile exercise. That said I have no idea what you are talking about re: dropped INT’s. I’ve watched all the games and don’t recall seeing more than one….

I’m glad you hope he continues to improve, I think most true Saints fans do but I also think you aren’t giving him enough credit, we are a SP coaching gaff from being 4-1 and Winston has a 12-3 (4-1) TD-INT ratio. The passing yardage (which I think is not nearly as important as most) is starting to come, he threw for 228 and 279 the last 2 games with a depleted WR corp so that is already getting better and as we get key players back on offense it is very likely our passing game becomes more prolific….and to be fair WR’s make plays on questionable passes sometimes, even when Brees was the QB.

I agree that he needs to be more consistent and I think there is some evidence that suggests he will….

 

[boutrous]

I wish folks would stop comparing him to Brees, its just a foolish, futile exercise. That said I have no idea what you are talking about re: dropped INT’s. I’ve watched all the games and don’t recall seeing more than one….

I’m glad you hope he continues to improve, I think most true Saints fans do but I also think you aren’t giving him enough credit, we are a SP coaching gaff from being 4-1 and Winston has a 12-3 (4-1) TD-INT ratio. The passing yardage (which I think is not nearly as important as most) is starting to come, he threw for 228 and 279 the last 2 games with a depleted WR corp so that is already getting better and as we get key players back on offense it is very likely our passing game becomes more prolific….and to be fair WR’s make plays on questionable passes sometimes, even when Brees was the QB.

I agree that he needs to be more consistent and I think there is some evidence that suggests he will….

This is how I see it. Personally, I toss the Carolina game away in my mind for the whole team, just like the Broncos fans probably toss the game against us last year away. Without that game Winston has 1 INT when a lineman stepped on his foot, and 1 INT which was called back for a penalty. He also has 1 lost fumble that was a solid defensive punch play. So if you take those into account without previous bias, I'm not sure how you can say he's been tossing the ball away and the defenses just haven't took advantage. I think he's easing into the flow of the offense, but I don't think he's settled in yet, and honestly, I like that Payton isn't just slinging the ball around all game. We've been yelling for him to run more for years, and now that he does, we are losing our minds. Winston is not and will not ever be Brees, but that doesn't mean he can't be pretty good, or at the bare minimum, good enough. I'll take a Trent Dilfer SuperBowl run any day. Run the ball, play solid defense, let Winston take the top off now and again. I'm Ok with that, I don't need a top 3 offense.