Natural gas powered cars... (1 Viewer)

[BHM]

Why has natural gas/propane powered cars become more main stream? Natural gas is just as safe as gasoline. It is cheap, plentiful and relatively low pollution.

Converting gasoline vehicles to natural gas is fairly cheap( much less that the federal subsidy for electric cars) and would be the one quick thing to greatly reduce our dependence on oil. It would be a great transition energy source as we move away from carbon fuels to greener renewable sources.

it would not kill cities/states with oil centric economies as gas is produced similar to oil.

Honda has a 2010 natural gas powered Civic for under $25,000 that gets 36mpg/highway.

Nothing but clean natural gas powers the Civic GX, making it nearly free of emissions.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/

 

[SWJJ]

Cost of building refueling stations and distance you can travel between fill ups are the 2 single issues that have slowed down a transition to CNG vehicles. Many companies are building their own refueling stations and converting their fleets to natural gas.

There are also opportunistic Natural Gas Producers with several different business models operating or planing to build future refueling stations, but the start up costs are very high.

Check out Clean Energy, t boone pickens company

 

[BHM]

Cost of building refueling stations and distance you can travel between fill ups are the 2 single issues that have slowed down a transition to CNG vehicles. Many companies are building their own refueling stations and converting their fleets to natural gas.

There are also opportunistic Natural Gas Producers with several different business models operating or planing to build future refueling stations, but the start up costs are very high.

Check out Clean Energy, t boone pickens company

I guess recharging stations for electric vehicles would be slightly less expansive than gas refueling stations but you also would not need as many due to the greater range of a natural gas powered car.

I will check your link. Thanks.

As the fueling infrastructure builds for CNG, the inconvenience of limited public fueling opportunities is softened by the availability of filling up at home. That's because Honda offers the Phill home refueling appliance, which was developed in conjunction with its Canadian technology partner Fuelmaker and is now manufactured by that company. Phill can be installed in a garage or outside a home to allow refueling using a home's natural gas supply. The refueling appliance does require as much as 16 hours to fill an almost empty tank, although it's likely that a natural gas vehicle refueled at home will rarely have an empty tank, and an overnight top-off will usually be sufficient for the daily commute. In many cases, vehicles fueled up at favorable natural gas home rates can operate as cheaply as the equivalent of $1.25 to $1.50 per gallon.

 

[cwesleyc]

This REALLY needs to happen and would be a major boon for LA and TX.
In natural gas production business regards,
Charles

 

[parlorcitysaint]

I sit above one of the richest marcellus shale natural gas deposits ever found. The gas companies have yet to start tapping it, because New York state is delaying the mining of it so that they can figure out how to grab as much of the revenues as they can. As if the taxes that they'll garner from the income won't be enough......

 

[Severum]

I guess recharging stations for electric vehicles would be slightly less expansive than gas refueling stations but you also would not need as many due to the greater range of a natural gas powered car.

The difference is PHEVs don't need recharging stations since they use conventional fuels for unlimited range. SWJJ is correct that CNG refueling infrastructure doesn't exist in many areas which is why NGVs have primarily been used as fleet vehicles in the US. The home refueling options are expensive and have questionable durability and support.

Our gasoline prices are still too low for many consumers to justify the switch to CNG. After the $4,000 federal rebate a Civic GX and home refueling appliance costs $9,000 to $16,000 more (depending on refueling appliance) than a comparable gasoline Civic and still has a lower resale value. At today's prices an average driver would save around $250/year using service stations (check prices here) or around $475/year with home refueling. Mass adoption will require lower NGV costs, larger federal incentives, higher federal gasoline taxes, and greatly expanded fueling infrastructure.

 

[BHM]

The difference is PHEVs don't need recharging stations since they use conventional fuels for unlimited range. SWJJ is correct that CNG refueling infrastructure doesn't exist in many areas which is why NGVs have primarily been used as fleet vehicles in the US. The home refueling options are expensive and have questionable durability and support.

Our gasoline prices are still too low for many consumers to justify the switch to CNG. After the $4,000 federal rebate a Civic GX and home refueling appliance costs $9,000 to $16,000 more (depending on refueling appliance) than a comparable gasoline Civic and still has a lower resale value. At today's prices an average driver would save around $250/year using service stations (check prices here) or around $475/year with home refueling. Mass adoption will require lower NGV costs, larger federal incentives, higher federal gasoline taxes, and greatly expanded fueling infrastructure.

I would rather see larger federal incentives on realistic natural gas vehicles instead of limited range electric vehicles. Natural gas would be a larger economic benefit with jobs and tax revenue versus battery powered cars.
it would be a great transition fuel.

I wonder if cng vehicles could run on propane since you can get propane every where.

 

[KiwiSaint]

Is there a way to refuel a CNG vehicle from a residential natural gas line?

Is that what you mean as home refueling appliances???

 

[RussTKD]

Is there a way to refuel a CNG vehicle from a residential natural gas line?

Is that what you mean as home refueling appliances???

Sure.. just run a line to a pressure regulator and have a hose that connects to the car.

(That's a very gross oversimplification of it, but it can be done.)

Another benefit of CNG powered vehicles is they still run internal combustion engines, so manufacturers would'nt have to do extensive retooling to produce the vehicles.

The biggest drawback is the pressurized tank of CNG you'd be driving around with. But if Honda can build a car that meets safety standards there's no reason Ford/GM/Chrysler/Nissan/Toyota (well, maybe not Toyota, as they're still figuring out how to get their cars to stop) can't do it.

 

[BHM]

Is there a way to refuel a CNG vehicle from a residential natural gas line?

Honda has partnered with a company that offers a home refilling unit. Severum mentioned that it costs between 9 and 16 thousand dollars.


The system is made by
phill which was partially owned by Honda. Phill filed for bankruptcy in 2010 and was bought out by another company. I found prices ranging from 2 to 6 thousand looking around online.

 

[BHM]

Sure.. just run a line to a pressure regulator and have a hose that connects to the car.

(That's a very gross oversimplification of it, but it can be done.)

Not quite that easy. Home line pressure is no where near the 3000psi needed to fill a tank. A compressor unit is required.

 

[Severum]

I would rather see larger federal incentives on realistic natural gas vehicles instead of limited range electric vehicles. Natural gas would be a larger economic benefit with jobs and tax revenue versus battery powered cars.
it would be a great transition fuel.

I wonder if cng vehicles could run on propane since you can get propane every where.

I think we should have incentives on both and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. An unlimited range PHEV could be powered by electricity and gasoline, diesel, CNG, LPG, or hydrogen.

I believe a dual fuel CNG/LPG vehicle could work, but it probably wouldn't make sense due to the limited LPG fueling infrastructure and safety issues. Dual fuel CNG/gasoline makes more sense if you don't mind the price and space premiums.

Is there a way to refuel a CNG vehicle from a residential natural gas line?

Is that what you mean as home refueling appliances???

Yeah, the reliable refueling appliances are very expensive.

CNG Chat has more info on vehicles, conversions, and fuel.

Honda has partnered with a company that offers a home refilling unit. Severum mentioned that it costs between 9 and 16 thousand dollars.

The system is made by
phill which was partially owned by Honda. Phill filed for bankruptcy in 2010 and was bought out by another company. I found prices ranging from 2 to 6 thousand looking around online.

That premium includes the $10,000 (-$4,000 rebate) vehicle premium as well. The refueling appliances cost around $3,000 to $10,000 depending on quality, see CNG Chat's refueling forum for first hand experiences. A station based model makes a lot more sense to me, but I'm slightly biased.

 

[KiwiSaint]

Honda has partnered with a company that offers a home refilling unit. Severum mentioned that it costs between 9 and 16 thousand dollars.


The system is made by
phill which was partially owned by Honda. Phill filed for bankruptcy in 2010 and was bought out by another company. I found prices ranging from 2 to 6 thousand looking around online.

Adding that cost to the cost of the vehicle pretty much rules out the CNG option from an economic standpoint. However, I could see benefits in a small fleet situation. I'll have to compare my natural gas cost vs gasoline to see what the per mile difference is. It may still be beneficial for our company cars that stay within a 50 mile radius of the home office. I don't see how it would work today for a family car when you have road trips, etc. that would require triyng to find CNG filling stations.

 

[Det. Brees]

Back in the seventies several cities tried out the n.g. motors. At the time they were very underpowered. Things may have changed now with technology but i don't know.

 

[parlorcitysaint]

Back in the seventies several cities tried out the n.g. motors. At the time they were very underpowered. Things may have changed now with technology but i don't know.

Here in upstate NY, the municipal buses are powered by natural gas, and I believe that NYSEG (ny state electric and gas) has most of their fleet on n.g. Oddly enough, NYSEG is now owned by a company in Spain.