New Public Safety Systems (2 Viewers)

[St. Widge]

This will be really interesting to watch how it unfolds.

In one of the twitter threads I linked, one of the suggestions for reform is funneling more money into community programs. There's a fair amount of evidence that strengthening community organizations leads to significantly lower crime rates (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0003122417736289).

You also take away police from doing wellness checks, and responding to mental health issues, and instead have mental health professionals take those calls.

My guess is they aren't going to get rid of an agency with investigative and arrest powers, but that will be smaller and more focused and other agencies will deal with things more specific to their areas of expertise.

I think some combination of a smaller police force with things like mental health being taken care of by other departments and the end of qualified immunity is the way to go. Gettin rid of police sounds great, but practically speaking, it means that only the wealthy will be truly safe with private security. The rest will turn to arming themselves and vigilante "justice."

 

[DaveXA]

I think some combination of a smaller police force with things like mental health being taken care of by other departments and the end of qualified immunity is the way to go. Gettin rid of police sounds great, but practically speaking, it means that only the wealthy will be truly safe with private security. The rest will turn to arming themselves and vigilante "justice."

Yeah, I really don't want to go the privatized security route. Hard to imagine, but that would make things much worse.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Yeah, I really don't want to go the privatized security route. Hard to imagine, but that would make things much worse.

That would probably be the easiest way to make the situation worse

 

[Tapxe]

I think some combination of a smaller police force with things like mental health being taken care of by other departments and the end of qualified immunity is the way to go. Gettin rid of police sounds great, but practically speaking, it means that only the wealthy will be truly safe with private security. The rest will turn to arming themselves and vigilante "justice."

Isn't one of the arguments for people needing weapons that by the time police can react it's too late? I think you still maintain that force it's just smaller and more focused.

Plus if the concentration of effort is on ways which actually prevent crime rather than enforce laws after the fact, would we overall be safer? The proverbial ounce of prevention...

 

[Heathen Saint]

This is a panic judgment. This is going to lead to more citizens carrying weapons to protect themselves or taking the law into their own hand. Politics are just as corrupt and do as much damage as police the people’s lives. Do we boot them all out and start over? It’s not for the city council to decide, this should be the people.

I don't know. The police force in America has failed time and again to treat matters fairly as it comes to racial equity. I don't know that you get actual change without structural revision. AFAIK from the article it wasn't talking about getting rid of the police department, just massively defunding it.

 

[Heathen Saint]

I wonder if it would take a complete rebuilding of society. Folks would need to give up the need for much of what corporations and capitalism sell and people bought in as having value.

That's a tall order IMHO. Not impossible, just how do you transition from personal valuation based on things and bank accounts to personal valuation based on being?

I believe a devaluation of what unfettered capitalism pushes for would be a great first step. It's sort of similar to the same reason modern societies are so hesitant if willing at all to go to war over small issues -- trade and reciprocity makes it much more likely that irreparable damage will be done if blatant action is taken. A human being who is not stressed about work, having a home, being taken care of when sick, etc. would probably be much likely less to engage in a reckless crime than one who is downtrodden and on their wit's end. America pushes people to the brink of insanity and suicide and lets the chips fall where they may as long as the corporations meet expected profits. It sounds a little over the top, but I can assure that it is unfortunately not.


Anyway.,.Healthcare, college/career path, housing assistance etc. being covered in a sense as long as you abide by the social contract as an American. I also think decriminalizing drugs and instead enforcing treatment and healing instead of throw away the key jail sentencing for nonviolent offenders would be key.

 

[St. Widge]

Isn't one of the arguments for people needing weapons that by the time police can react it's too late? I think you still maintain that force it's just smaller and more focused.

Plus if the concentration of effort is on ways which actually prevent crime rather than enforce laws after the fact, would we overall be safer? The proverbial ounce of prevention...

I mean, sure if you concentrate on doing things to prevent crime like education, good jobs, higher rates of pay, etc. you would likely have less crime and less need of police. But, some crime is still going to happen whether it be murder, battery, stealing, etc. So, you need some kind of police force. But, it could certainly be smaller.

All of this, of course, pretty much so assumes that you legalize drugs because a large part of the size of police forces and their militarization is the "war" on drugs.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I don't know. The police force in America has failed time and again to treat matters fairly as it comes to racial equity. I don't know that you get actual change without structural revision. AFAIK from the article it wasn't talking about getting rid of the police department, just massively defunding it.

Even though a racial crime is what sparked all of this, as we address concerns about policing, other shortcomings like mental health and sexual assault (both female and gay) issues can/should be addressed as well

 

[Heathen Saint]

Even though a racial crime is what sparked all of this, as we address concerns about policing, other shortcomings like mental health and sexual assault (both female and gay) issues can/should be addressed as well

Granted I know next to nothing about how boards are made up or operated on a police force, but I would think it would make sense to have an advisory board made up of the community/minorities to filter through candidates and have the ability to remove those that fail to meet expectations. As it stands now many are honestly, and I don't say this to be edgy, 'too white'. That system of hush hush and fraternal cover ups has to be eliminated. Maybe common sense oversight from a variety of people and groups the police serve would help fix that.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Granted I know next to nothing about how boards are made up or operated on a police force, but I would think it would make sense to have an advisory board made up of the community/minorities to filter through candidates and have the ability to remove those that fail to meet expectations. As it stands now many are honestly, and I don't say this to be edgy, 'too white'. That system of hush hush and fraternal cover ups has to be eliminated. Maybe common sense oversight from a variety of people and groups the police serve would help fix that.

On a fundamental level policing is about crime and punishment- with an emphasis on punishment
and what we know about punishment is that it wants to exercise even if there’s not much call for it — broken window and stop and frisk policies of shining examples of preordained punishment looking for reasons to be

otoh, this is prime time to shift the focus from punishment to justice (especially restorative justice)
and reframing a goal of community health vs the practice of protecting preferred citizens over ‘them’

 

[Tapxe]

Granted I know next to nothing about how boards are made up or operated on a police force, but I would think it would make sense to have an advisory board made up of the community/minorities to filter through candidates and have the ability to remove those that fail to meet expectations. As it stands now many are honestly, and I don't say this to be edgy, 'too white'. That system of hush hush and fraternal cover ups has to be eliminated. Maybe common sense oversight from a variety of people and groups the police serve would help fix that.

It's a very difficult thing to defeat. These officers can find themselves in life threatening situations and need someone to have their back. It's what builds the brotherhood regardless of race.

I agree with those who say it's time to end the failed war on drugs then spend that money on helping citizens. If we aren't waging war against our citizens, it should help deescalate the dangers.

I was looking for a different video by Simon I've posted before which talks about how officers are incentivised professionally by the easy method of arrests based on drug laws. They make lots of over time and promotion from it since it's not like solving a murder or robbery.

Instead I found this, but it speaks to a lot of social ill caused by things we've discussed here as well

 

[Dragon]

On a fundamental level policing is about crime and punishment- with an emphasis on punishment
and what we know about punishment is that it wants to exercise even if there’s not much call for it — broken window and stop and frisk policies of shining examples of preordained punishment looking for reasons to be

otoh, this is prime time to shift the focus from punishment to justice (especially restorative justice)
and reframing a goal of community health vs the practice of protecting preferred citizens over ‘them’

This is one of the areas where the US differ to a very high extend compared to Europe.

Yes - our legal systems definitely punish offenders but we usually don't put people behind bars for 40+ years or longer. The focus is very much on rehabilitation and behavioral changes. Mental health is certainly also a big part of it but also education, learning a trade and supervised halfway houses when people are released from jail. Yes we do have some people (very few) locked up indefinitely but that is due to medical experts testifying that they are so mentally ill that they would be too dangerous to release. And even in those cases, it requires a new medical examination every two years to confirm that the person is stil dangerous.

We also use a high degree of Community service convictions for non-violent offenders and many of those who are imprisoned are allowed to go to their regular job every day and to return to the jail at night (wearing an ankle monitor)

Lastly if your crime is non-violent, it will usually be removed from your public records after 5-10 years (judicial systems will still be able to access this - but no other)

 

[Flipx99]

The President of the Minneapolis City Council was recently interviewed. She was asked who would I call if someone is breaking into my house in the middle of the night. Her response was not especially helpful, but it was woke:



This is not a serious person, it's Peter Pan when what they need is an adult.

 

[Heathen Saint]

This is not a serious person, it's Peter Pan when what they need is an adult.

Thereby is dismantling a corrupt police department a pie in the sky, ponies (insert adjective here) idea?

I agree that some sort of public law enforcement is necessary in a modern society. What I don't agree on is how much role a police department with a history of cases of terrorizing the community should play.

 

[Tapxe]

The President of the Minneapolis City Council was recently interviewed. She was asked who would I call if someone is breaking into my house in the middle of the night. Her response was not especially helpful, but it was woke:



This is not a serious person, it's Peter Pan when what they need is an adult.

It wasn't a great response, but it wasn't nearly as bad as you portray. She openly admits this is a long process and doesn't just happen over night.

Can you even imagine fearing to call the police because they will likely escalate a situation and make things worse? Because, that's essentially what is happening and what these reforms are seeking to end.