NFL to present new resolutions to Rooney Rule, which includes draft-related incentives (1 Viewer)

[RazorOye]

Again, that is the core of why we disagree. Rewarding clubs by improving draft position inherently hurts teams that do no fit a criteria. What is the criteria? Hiring people of color. In my view, that is racist because teams that have white coaches are discriminated against...because if they have a white coach, they can't fit the criteria.Theres no way they can be rewarded but they can definitely be harmed by being forced to drop down a draft spot that they "earned".

we've clarified that hiring a female head coach wouldn't yield the same reward in the proposal?

Also, I understand your logic, I just don't see how it matches your definition. I tried putting it another way...

to reiterate, just to see if I am following then, because I think I get it - the NASCAR program and the MLB inner city program and the NHL program are also racist, then? Your argument is that all of those are racist.

At least I've given an alternative solution.

as did I.

 

[RazorOye]

That's fine that you think this policy is racist, but it's not supported by the dictionary or really anything factual.

You feel that it's racist. That's fine. Objectively, it isn't. But how you feel is important too.

And yeah, really nobody on this thread has said they like the policy.

yea, I guess I could've gone with that instead of like 500 times that

 

[SuperSaint]

Please feel free to argue your point (definitions, examples, historical context, et al)
saying something is not the same as arguing a point

If you believe this resolution isn't wrong or racist, then you would certainly agree with me that we need a resolution for every other 'oppressed' group. Let's get one for women, LGBTQ, the handicapped, open the floodgates!

 

[St.Fury]

That's fine that you think this policy is racist, but it's not supported by the dictionary or really anything factual.

You feel that it's racist. That's fine. Objectively, it isn't. But how you feel is important too.

And yeah, really nobody on this thread has said they like the policy.

It is most certainly supported by the definition I provided, which uses the word "feeling". As a handicapped person who has experienced being discriminated against, I believe I'm just as qualified as anyone else to suggest what may constitute discrimination.

we've clarified that hiring a female head coach wouldn't yield the same reward in the proposal?

Females aren't mentioned in this tweet so its impossible to know.

Also, I understand your logic, I just don't see how it matches your definition. I tried putting it another way...

And I say the same about your logic.

to reiterate, just to see if I am following then, because I think I get it - the NASCAR program and the MLB inner city program and the NHL program are also racist, then? Your argument is that all of those are racist.

I don't follow those sports, so I wouldnt know about their programs. But if it rewards one race while also hurting another, then yes.

as did I.

I didn't mean to suggest you didn't. My apoligies there. I've been doing my best in recent history (life in general) to provide an alternate solution when railing aginst something I disagree with.

 

[RazorOye]

I don't follow those sports, so I wouldnt know about their programs. But if it rewards one race while also hurting another, then yes.

It’s why I included a bunch of hyperlinks in my post. But fair enough...

I didn't mean to suggest you didn't. My apoligies there. I've been doing my best in recent history (life in general) to provide an alternate solution when railing aginst something I disagree with.

Thanks

 

[Loose Cannon]

It is most certainly supported by the definition I provided, which uses the word "feeling". As a handicapped person who has experienced being discriminated against, I believe I'm just as qualified as anyone else to suggest what may constitute discrimination.

Discrimination is not the same thing as racism. The post I quoted had you saying the word "racism", not discrimination.

Racism and discrimination are not the same thing. It's not appropriate for the handful of people on this thread to go around screaming "racism" when what they mean is discrimination. They're not even remotely the same thing.

 

[RazorOye]

It is most certainly supported by the definition I provided, which uses the word "feeling". As a handicapped person who has experienced being discriminated against, I believe I'm just as qualified as anyone else to suggest what may constitute discrimination.

Do you mean *you're* feeling discriminated against?

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

If you believe this resolution isn't wrong or racist, then you would certainly agree with me that we need a resolution for every other 'oppressed' group. Let's get one for women, LGBTQ, the handicapped, open the floodgates!

If there is a large pool of candidates who’ve clearly suffered from hiring discrimination, then why wouldn’t I want that redressed?
I’m not an animal

 

[First Time Poster]

So, let me not be like that and try to add, albeit late, my perspective to the discussion.

I think participation in this arena, meaning this discussion, requires that one be willing to accept some truths that may feel unsavory or seem wrong. I'm not asking that you just accept facts about bias or diversity hiring but you do have to be willing to consider a different possibility from what you think you know.

With that being said, with my expertise in this field, to make this is as simple as possible, diversity, in any fashion, including hiring, doesn't mean taking from someone qualified, and giving to another "unqualified" person, based on your diversity criteria. That's one of the biggest mistakes people make. Before delving into that, though, let's accurately talk about that term "qualified."

Qualified is relative, subjective and malleable and far too often, persons use it as a catch-all term that is way too simplistic and based on tunnel vision. To illustrate, I'm hiring for a graveyard night manager at 24/7 McDonald's, weekends mandatory. Applicant A has 3 degrees, including Harvard, 5 kids, a daytime job with no experience working fast food. Applicant B is a 3 year college student, no kids, already works the graveyard shift in drive-thru and is a former daytime manager for a fast food competitor. Who's more "qualified?"

On paper, yeah, Harvard guy's credentials and resume is impressive but, c'mon, he's not a job fit for what you are looking for. Dude has kids and a daytime job which doesn't mesh with nights and weekends, and to boot, no experience in my field. Now, the interview process may turn up things to change your mind but the point is, "qualified" is never as simplistic as person who is the best fit based on some overall Madden rating. It's always way more nuanced than that.

Which is why I circle back to diversity hiring. It's not about giving a job to someone solely based on the subset you may be looking for, it starts with finding someone "qualified." Diversity isn't passing up someone who is white and qualified and giving it to someone unqualified or less qualified who's black. If any company is doing it that way, they are doing it wrong. I can tell you at the level that I oversee hirings, no serious company hires unqualified or less qualified people to fill a quota. There is too much money at stake and too many jobs on the line to pick people out if a hat based on ethnicity, religion, ability or orientation. It is about gathering as many "qualified" applicants you can into the pool, indiscriminately (key), ensuring everyone gets an opportunity and, yes, if you have a diversity gap and that applicant fits the need, you give them the opportunity.

Far too often, persons get focused on the tree and lose sight of the forest in these discussions. They focus on the one or handful of white guys who don't get hired in favor of a diversity hire (who's qualified!) and bemoan his plight but then say nothing of the thousands of diversity applicants who never get an opportunity to even be interviewed and turned down. Out of sight, out of mind.

Anyway, as intimated by others, I'm not ecstatic about this draft pick resolution, but welcome ideas, even shortsighted ones. The situation is even more dire in college football.

Redirect Notice

From 2008 to 2018, there were 250 head-coaching transitions at the Football Bowl Subdivision level. 3 Only 2 percent of those transitions saw one black head coach hand the keys over to another black head coach. Fifteen percent of the transitions involved a coach who did not identify as African American being replaced by someone who did, and 12 percent involved a coach who identified as African American being replaced by someone who didn’t. More than 70 percent of transitions involved two coaches who aren’t African American. Put a different way, an FBS program that switched head coaches from 2008 to 2018 was 68 percentage points more likely to have a coaching change that involved two men who didn’t identify as African American than to have one involving two African American men. And if a black coach either was fired or left to take another opportunity, there was less than a 1 in 5 chance that his successor was also black.

Just seven times in NCAA history has a Division I program replaced one African American head coach with another noninterim African American head coach. Nearly all of those instances involved the predecessor willingly leaving for another gig, 4 and only one came after the former coach was fired. 5

Since Willie Jeffries became the first African American head football coach at the Division I level in 1979, 68 Division I programs have hired an African American head coach. At the Power Five level, only Colorado has fired a black head coach and later hired another. In a century and a half, Tyrone Willingham is the only African American college football head coach to be fired and land at a program of similar caliber in the same role.

Since 1975, I could find only seven instances of an African American head coach being fired and receiving a second opportunity as a head coach. 6

Take the comparison between Willie Taggart and Scott Frost. Taggart gets hired to Florida State in 2018, goes 9-12 and gets fired before he can finish his second season. He's now coaching at Florida Atlantic. Frost gets hired to Nebraska in 2018, goes 9-15, allowed to finish his second season...and is awarded a two year contract extension that goes thru the year 2026.

Redirect Notice

-- Black coaches are less likely to be hired as a head coach, offensive coordinator or defensive coordinator.

— Black coaches rarely get a chance to thrive at the most prominent schools.

— Black coaches generally get a shorter time frame to prove their coaching skills.

— Black coaches find it more difficult getting a second chance if things don’t work out in their initial jobs.

The draft pick thing is typical NFL. It's always carrot on a stick resolutions with them. They think the horse is lazy and needs motivation so they dangle the carrot out in front of him. The truth is the rider is lazy. He has the resources and time to properly train the horse into becoming a thoroughbred but he chooses to just saddle up and ride, at his leisure, and packs his carrot each time.

The NFL and NCAA both have the resources and means to truly help with the issue but neither entity seems keen on fixing it long term. Let's be honest. This isn't on GM's and head coaches (the horse). It's on the NFL Owners, University Presidents, Athletic Directors and the people they answer to (the rider). If they care about diversity, they seek to hire dudes who care, who in turn builds a staff that reflects such. The larger the pool, the more opportunities, the better network, the more connections and, ultimately, the more sustainability. But that will take changing the minds and hearts of some folks that I don't quite believe are willing.

 

[No2DC]

Some of you guys think think world is some level playing field where everyone gets an equal shot. Corporate welfare is real, yet no one complains about it. In fact, Congress just passed a massive stimulus and it was widely reported that multi million dollar corporations were receiving loans in stead of "small businesses".

Moreover, some of you would cry unfair if you found out that a black person or other minority got into a prestigious institution over an equally qualified white person but don't have the slightest clue that a significant number of college admissions are legacy related. I guess the fact that I got into Tulane ( I didn't go there, I'm just using it as an example) because my parents went there is not the same as affirmative action.

Sports like golf and tennis were not seen as elite sports because of the action. Instead, serious, unofficial, business is conducted at country clubs that has golf and tennis facilities.
It's bad enough that some of you will never comprehend the generational impact of slavry in the US and colonialism/imperialism worldwide but worse off many you don't know how the world works.

 

[renegadewa]

Allowing more minority owners (majority owners) could be a better start. Change starts at the top. To go further, why not a black commissioner? I’m sure no one can do a worse job than Big Red Goodell

Ok so how exactly do you "allow" more minority owners? As far as I know there is nothing standing in the way of any minority owning a professional sports franchise as long as they have the money to do so and if they want to spend it to own a team.

This is the proverbial "turd in the punch bowl" scenario waiting to happen.
I mean how do you explain to a team that their spot in the draft will be taken down a notch so another team can be rewarded for hiring a minority?

I am all for something that will work...…..........…......but this 'aint it!!

 

[SweetT]

Ok so how exactly do you "allow" more minority owners? As far as I know there is nothing standing in the way of any minority owning a professional sports franchise as long as they have the money to do so and if they want to spend it to own a team.

This is the proverbial "turd in the punch bowl" scenario waiting to happen.
I mean how do you explain to a team that their spot in the draft will be taken down a notch so another team can be rewarded for hiring a minority?

I am all for something that will work...…..........…......but this 'aint it!!

There is something standing in the way. Just goggle “what does it take to own an NFL team” and tell me if there are many African Americans that fit the criteria. It’s not as easy as walking into a WalMart and buying a 4K TV

 

[dwid]

There is something standing in the way. Just goggle “what does it take to own an NFL team” and tell me if there are many African Americans that fit the criteria. It’s not as easy as walking into a WalMart and buying a 4K TV

Not many people fit that criteria in general. Should we just gift people franchises elevating them to billionaires?

 

[SweetT]

Not many people fit that criteria in general. Should we just gift people franchises elevating them to billionaires?

Exactly, this problem goes much deeper than just the NFL. It goes back further than that. In regards to your question, no not gift them, but at least seek someone out to gauge their interest. Diddy wanted to buy the Panthers, but was sold to a guy who already had ownership of the Steelers. Tepper’s ties to the Carolina’s was said to be why he was chosen. . Had the NFL allowed bigger “group” ownership, then more African Americans would have a better shot. It’s set up for lack of diversity.

These are the only two owners of color in the NFL

Of the more than 90 teams in the NFL, NBA and MLB, just six people of color are principal owners.

money.cnn.com

 

[kizzy821]

Racism will never solve racism.
If I were white I would be upset because it's not fair to others who qualify as well.
I am black. I'm insulted by the soft bigotry that says we constantly need an advantage to succeed.
Just being a fair person who has seen and experienced racism I wouldn't want to put that back on anyone to experience.
Just being a grown man I wouldn't want to achieve anything just to have the nagging question on my conscious, "Did I only make it here because...?"

If I were white, I'd be upset and embarrassed that we've created and perpetuated a society where such a program is needed.

If I were Black, I wouldn't care if my dream job hired me because they were incentivized. It's better than NOT being hired because of my skin color.

If you're Black, then you know good and well getting hired is only 25% of the battle and you're not going to "achieve" anything else without working twice as hard as everyone else. You know your "achievements" from then on out will need to be extraordinary to even be recognized as standard.

If you're Black, then you know the 'advantage' you speak of is not a legitimate advantage. If an ER chooses to see the most severely injured patients first, few would be pressed to call their injuries an advantage.

Being the fair person l am, if there was a way to put racism back on the people who've dished it out for centuries, I'd do it. Because fairness.