Not Really Media v. Scouts (1 Viewer)

RJ in Lafayette

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The amount of draft information available to the general public today is extraordinary. How many of you were able to correctly guess a team's first-round pick in real time Thursday night and how many true surprises were there in the first 20 picks. Indeed, the problem for the Saints Thursday night is that, based on all the media rankings and mock drafts, nobody dropped.

The best media "analyst" ever was Joel Buchsbaum, who sadly died about 15 years. Bill Belichick once tried to hire him, and Belichick and a number of football personnel people attended his memorial services. But Buchsbaum often said that he was not a scout, but an "information gatherer".

There are those in the media who are qualified to evaluate talent and give opinions largely based on their own film study. Bill Pollan quickly comes to mind. There are those like Daniel Jeremiah and once Mike Mayock who obviously spend much time evaluating players and who seem to provide reliable rankings.

And there are those like Mel Kiper who are providing rankings largely based on what they are told by team sources whom they have cultivated and trust, though they tinker here and there with the rankings to conform to their impressions. But when you read Bob McGinnis position rankings the week before the draft, you are seeing a true consensus of what NFL personnel people think--the conventional wisdom and the diversity of opinion in the industry on the eve of the draft.

Drafting good players is really hard. Every NFL team should have statistical data of the probability of selecting a Pro Bowl player or multiple-year starter based on the draft number and position. And the probabilities of hitting in the draft are lower than people think even at the top of the draft and decrease quickly after the first 75 to 80 picks or so.

When a team makes a "surprise" pick like Peyton Turner, it does not mean the team made a bad pick. And because of Covid, the 2021 draft may prove an outlier because so many players did not play or played little in 2020. But it means, at least to me, that a team's evaluation may have been different from how other teams saw a player and that a particular pick merits extra scrutiny and more questions. Of course, most in the media talking about players could never get a job as a team scout or personnel evaluator, and certainly have not spent the time evaluating players that NFL teams spend. But when the best in the media talk about grades and rankings, they are not providing their personal opinion, but a consensus of the opinion of those who are qualified to evaluate and who are actually evaluating players.
 
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The amount of draft information available to the general public today is extraordinary. How many of you were able to correctly guess a team's first-round pick in real time Thursday night and how many true surprises were there in the first 20 picks. Indeed, the problem for the Saints Thursday night is that, based on all the media rankings and mock drafts, nobody dropped.

The best media "analyst" ever was Joel Buchsbaum, who sadly died about 15 years. Bill Belichick once tried to hire him, and Belichick and a number of football personnel people attended his memorial services. But Buchsbaum often said that he was not a scout, but an "information gatherer".

There are those in the media who are qualified to evaluate talent and give opinions largely based on their own film study. Bill Pollan quickly comes to mind. There are those like Daniel Jeremiah and once Mike Mayock who obviously spend much time evaluating players and who seem to provide reliable rankings.

And there are those like Mel Kiper who are providing rankings largely based on what they are told by team sources whom they have cultivated and trust, though they tinker here and there with the rankings to conform to their impressions. But when you read Bob McGinnis position rankings the week before the draft, you are seeing a true consensus of what NFL personnel people think--the conventional wisdom and the diversity of opinion in the industry on the eve of the draft.

Drafting good players is really hard. Every NFL team should have statistical data of the probability of selecting a Pro Bowl player or multiple-year starter based on the draft number and position. And the probabilities of hitting in the draft are lower than people think even at the top of the draft and decrease quickly after the first 75 to 80 picks or so.

When a team makes a "surprise" pick like Peyton Turner, it does not mean the team made a bad pick. And because of Covid, the 2021 draft may prove an outlier because so many players did not play or played little in 2020. But it means, at least to me, that a team's evaluation may have been different from how other teams saw a player and that a particular pick merits extra scrutiny and more questions. Of course, most in the media talking about players could never get a job as a team scout or personnel evaluator, and certainly have not spent the time evaluating players that NFL teams spend. But when the best in the media talk about grades and rankings, they are not providing their personal opinion, but a consensus of the opinion of those who are qualified to evaluate and who are actually evaluating players.
Keep trying to convince yourself, the Saints have graded well this year. Outside of the miracle draft of 2017, what about the last 3 years?
 
Keep trying to convince yourself, the Saints have graded well this year. Outside of the miracle draft of 2017, what about the last 3 years?
2016
Rankins
Thomas
Bell
Onyemata

2018
Davenport
TQS

2019
McCoy
CJGJ

2020
Trautmen
Ruiz

Id say drafting that many contributors outside of the “miracle“ 2017 is pretty good
 
Not sold on Ruiz, but maybe he'll improve this year with a real camp (and possibly a move to his natural position of C). Overall, Ireland has one of the better drafting track records in the NFL.
 
We do need to keep in mind how late in rounds we have drafted in the last four drafts. It matters a great deal.

Considering we did not have a first-round pick in 2019, we had a good draft that year. It is too early to judge the 2020 draft. The 2018 draft was a bad draft, and given the price of the Davenport trade, it set the franchise back because it meant no first-round pick in 2019 and trading away picks to move up to select two players we liked.

But two to three years from now, we will looking at four first-round picks for the 2018-2021 period producing Davenport, Ruiz and Turner. If we are then mired in mediocrity, that will be a major reason.
 
We do need to keep in mind how late in rounds we have drafted in the last four drafts. It matters a great deal.

Considering we did not have a first-round pick in 2019, we had a good draft that year. It is too early to judge the 2020 draft. The 2018 draft was a bad draft, and given the price of the Davenport trade, it set the franchise back because it meant no first-round pick in 2019 and trading away picks to move up to select two players we liked.

But two to three years from now, we will looking at four first-round picks for the 2018-2021 period producing Davenport, Ruiz and Turner. If we are then mired in mediocrity, that will be a major reason.
Yeah, couldnhave added that I’m not sold on Davenport either, especially given what we gave up for him. On the other hand, this might be the year he comes into his own.
 
2016
Rankins
Thomas
Bell
Onyemata

2018
Davenport
TQS

2019
McCoy
CJGJ

2020
Trautmen
Ruiz

Id say drafting that many contributors outside of the “miracle“ 2017 is pretty good
Can’t put all the blame on Ireland for not having many picks in 18-20
 
Why is it out of the realm of possibility that the offense might be a bit more simplified this year now that Jameis is apparently the guy? You're not going to have Brees, a long term stalwart of 15 seasons at the helm anymore. Not a knock on the intelligence of Jameis, just makes no sense to expect a guy in year 2 to have the same grasp on the system that Brees had in seasons past. Stuff like this might help Ruiz out, maybe Payton doesn't ask Jameis and the offense to do nearly as much as he would have if Brees was still at the helm. Brees was a coach on the field who changed out of many many plays depending on what he saw.
 
The amount of draft information available to the general public today is extraordinary. How many of you were able to correctly guess a team's first-round pick in real time Thursday night and how many true surprises were there in the first 20 picks. Indeed, the problem for the Saints Thursday night is that, based on all the media rankings and mock drafts, nobody dropped.

The best media "analyst" ever was Joel Buchsbaum, who sadly died about 15 years. Bill Belichick once tried to hire him, and Belichick and a number of football personnel people attended his memorial services. But Buchsbaum often said that he was not a scout, but an "information gatherer".

There are those in the media who are qualified to evaluate talent and give opinions largely based on their own film study. Bill Pollan quickly comes to mind. There are those like Daniel Jeremiah and once Mike Mayock who obviously spend much time evaluating players and who seem to provide reliable rankings.

And there are those like Mel Kiper who are providing rankings largely based on what they are told by team sources whom they have cultivated and trust, though they tinker here and there with the rankings to conform to their impressions. But when you read Bob McGinnis position rankings the week before the draft, you are seeing a true consensus of what NFL personnel people think--the conventional wisdom and the diversity of opinion in the industry on the eve of the draft.

Drafting good players is really hard. Every NFL team should have statistical data of the probability of selecting a Pro Bowl player or multiple-year starter based on the draft number and position. And the probabilities of hitting in the draft are lower than people think even at the top of the draft and decrease quickly after the first 75 to 80 picks or so.

When a team makes a "surprise" pick like Peyton Turner, it does not mean the team made a bad pick. And because of Covid, the 2021 draft may prove an outlier because so many players did not play or played little in 2020. But it means, at least to me, that a team's evaluation may have been different from how other teams saw a player and that a particular pick merits extra scrutiny and more questions. Of course, most in the media talking about players could never get a job as a team scout or personnel evaluator, and certainly have not spent the time evaluating players that NFL teams spend. But when the best in the media talk about grades and rankings, they are not providing their personal opinion, but a consensus of the opinion of those who are qualified to evaluate and who are actually evaluating players.
I mentioned the other day that IMO Bushbaum was the best. Early on in the ‘70’s he was competing with Kiper, but his draft reports were so much more detailed and frankly more accurate. You were spot on on the differences in how analysts gathered or evaluated prospects. It was sad to see Bushbaum die so young!
 

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