On saluting the flag. (1 Viewer)

[rajncajn]

There are five examples of war atrocities committed under the US flag shown below. A complete list would be much longer.

When we stand and salute the flag are we also praising this, as well as racial injustice, etc? That flag is not pristine and does not stand for all we claim- all that has been drilled into us almost daily since birth. The truth is there are plenty of reasons for someone who is capable of thinking on their own to refuse to stand and salute the flag. If I were black, I see no way that I could stand and salute that flag.

You're not saluting a flag, you're honoring those that sacrificed to build this country and fought & suffered for it's freedoms and the ideals that our country stands for. We don't always live up to those ideals, but that's no reason not to honor those that have. Those people are who this country and the flag represents, not the one's in your example or the bad cops who senselessly killed George Floyd. Nobody is perfect & certainly no country is without it's dark points, but the fact that change has and will continue to come & all of our lives will continue to get better from those sacrifices is what we should honor. George Floyd's death has become an outcry for civil rights and will likely inspire more real change than we've seen in a long time. His sacrifice is worth honoring by honoring the ideals that make that change possible.

 

[0rion]

How did you determine that "..... so many are willing to only look at our flaws... " just because they didn't share a list all the positives? ...... and that's not a complete list of flaws either. I didn't even address another country, great or not, nor attempt to rank them. I agree that no country is perfect ... but that statement about being the greatest is well-worn in some circles and very suspect.

Don't let the circles determine your stance. To me this is the greatest country on the planet. If I didn't think so I wouldn't live here and would encourage anyone that doesn't think so to find the country that fits their ideals better and live there.

 

[ccss]

You're not saluting a flag, you're honoring those that sacrificed to build this country and fought & suffered for it's freedoms and the ideals that our country stands for. We don't always live up to those ideals, but that's no reason not to honor those that have. Those people are who this country and the flag represents, not the one's in your example or the bad cops who senselessly killed George Floyd. Nobody is perfect & certainly no country is without it's dark points, but the fact that change has and will continue to come & all of our lives will continue to get better from those sacrifices is what we should honor. George Floyd's death has become an outcry for civil rights and will likely inspire more real change than we've seen in a long time. His sacrifice is worth honoring by honoring the ideals that make that change possible.

I do honor and revere those who gave their lives in service to our country, even those who did so in useless and unnecessary wars. Whether or not the country should have been there, or those wars completely unnecessary or fought on false pretenses, those who died offered their lives with a dedication that deserves honor and appreciation. I get it. And I agree. The fault lies with those who made the decision to send them there.
The flag, however, represents the country, the republic and it's stated ideals of liberty and justice for all ---- and it is a fallacy to a very large degree. And that should not be glossed over. That same flag flies over all, the good, the bad, and the ugly. The things pointed out in my original post show that fact, along with the things you included above. Therefore, I understand anyone who chooses to exercise their right to protest by refusing to stand for the flag, anthem, etc. If we do not hold the country accountable for those things that it does wrong, we are dishonoring those who died toward that end.

 

[ccss]

Don't let the circles determine your stance. To me this is the greatest country on the planet. If I didn't think so I wouldn't live here and would encourage anyone that doesn't think so to find the country that fits their ideals better and live there.

Never liked circles much, I was pointing out just the opposite, apparently many people do. I'm pretty square. Man I hope you don't mean "like it or leave it", I'm hopeful that my fellow WhoDats are a little more open-minded than that. Is there something wrong with recognizing a problem with something you love and trying to do what you can to fix it rather than completely ignoring it or throwing it away for something new or different?
Asking for a friend.

 

[0rion]

Never liked circles much, I was pointing out just the opposite, apparently many people do. I'm pretty square. Man I hope you don't mean "like it or leave it", I'm hopeful that my fellow WhoDats are a little more open-minded than that. Is there something wrong with recognizing a problem with something you love and trying to do what you can to fix it rather than completely ignoring it or throwing it away for something new or different?
Asking for a friend.

Not like it or leave it....more of a find your happy place. A place you can take pride in. For me that's the US. I'd say that no matter the country someone lives in it would be impossible to do better than this one. That's just my opinion so take it as such. I will give everyone the right to down talk it because that's one of the things that makes it great....I will also be offended by that because that too is my right.

 

[saintmdterps]

There are five examples of war atrocities committed under the US flag shown below. A complete list would be much longer.

When we stand and salute the flag are we also praising this, as well as racial injustice, etc? That flag is not pristine and does not stand for all we claim- all that has been drilled into us almost daily since birth. The truth is there are plenty of reasons for someone who is capable of thinking on their own to refuse to stand and salute the flag. If I were black, I see no way that I could stand and salute that flag.

As Frederick Douglass said in a speech on July 5, 1852, "The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity and independence, bequeathed by your fathers, is shared by you, not by me."

That was a long time ago and things are still not right for black people. We all have to admit that fact.

I support Colin Kaepernick and the black community in the fight for justice. I love this country, but I am not blind to the fact that we have a lot of work to do to make it right, and I am not in favor of supporting something that is obviously wrong.

This country was meant to be made up of people - families, friends and neighbors, like those out on the streets trying to do what they can to initiate change. We have strayed from that ideal, and our country is now defined and ruled by bigwigs in Washington and the corporations and rich plutocrats that support and direct them, and the people have little or no power.

Which group does the flag stand for? This is not the country our founding fathers intended. The policies and actions taken by this country no longer represent the will of the people. Like it or not, that flag has become a symbol of a country run by interests whose main goal is money, power and control, including control of the people of this country.

We need to take steps to take back control of our country. We can only do so together, and we can only come together when our black brothers and sisters feel that they are on equal footing and have an equal part and equal say in the actions taken.
Work can only start if we all open our hearts and minds and seek the truth. We have to admit that there is a problem before we can begin to seek a solution. I do hope that process has finally started. We all need to do whatever it takes to make sure that the words of Frederick Douglass no longer define the status of any citizen in this country. Maybe then, we can all gladly stand and salute our flag.


1. No Gun Ri, Korea

In July 1950, around 400 South Korean civilians were killed in the town of No Gun Ri by US forces from the 7th Cavalry Regiment.

2. My Lai, Vietnam

On March 16, 1968, the Charlie Company, 11th Brigade entered the village of My Lai, in an area of Vietnam where many members of the American brigade had been maimed or killed by Viet Cong forces, PBS reported. The troops ended up killing over 300 civilians under orders from their Lieutenant, William Calley, who told his men to enter the village firing, though there had been no report of opposing fire, PBS reported.

3. Abu Ghraib, Iraq

In 2004, the world was shocked when photos were released of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib. The photos, which showed Iraqi detainees being beaten, abused and sexually assaulted, fueled Arab and Muslim rage against the United States.
4. Haditha, Iraq
On November 19, 2005, a group of US marines killed 24 unarmed men, women and children in the city of Haditha in Western Iraq. Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich admitted to telling his men to “shoot first and ask questions later."
5. Azizabad airstrike, Afghanistan
On August 22, 2008, Afghan civilians who had gathered in a small village for the memorial ceremony of a militia leader were killed by in an airstrike by US soldiers. The airstrike's estimated casualties varied widely between 30 and 90.

I'll add the fire bombing of Dresden, Germany February 13-15 which killed 25,000 civilians. Dresden had no industrial or strategic value and the war was winding down.

 

[saintmdterps]

Don't let the circles determine your stance. To me this is the greatest country on the planet. If I didn't think so I wouldn't live here and would encourage anyone that doesn't think so to find the country that fits their ideals better and live there.

I think it better that we recognize the faults in the USA and work for change. Love it or leave it is weak.

 

[DadsDream]

Never liked circles much . . .

I understand.

 

[Heathen Saint]

You're not saluting a flag, you're honoring those that sacrificed to build this country and fought & suffered for it's freedoms and the ideals that our country stands for.

And one can appreciate what people have fought for without saluting the flag, wouldn't you agree? The anthem at sporting events has become a military allegiance litmus test. A lot of people angry with those who don't do as they do see it as essentially "I don't care that you see that we've committed atrocities that still go on today or that your race is continuing to be oppressed under that flag -- you salute and be grateful, or i'll hate you".