Payton could learn from Coach O’s example (2 Viewers)

[Saint Spud]

I’m going to say 75% of the time. On the play he fumbled, he changed it up and it led to a miscommunication. Imagine if he had just run the running play Sean called.

Bingo.

You always, always, always want a QB who you trust enough to change plays at the line.

But that also means he has to own the mistakes that come from it. Even if Ginn did run the wrong route, that doesn’t excuse Brees from fumbling the ball.

 

[dutar76]

Oh of course it’s situational- they’re just always huge situations that change the course of a season. Most concerning is the inability to learn from mistakes or admit a game plan isn’t working. We’ve seen teams capitalize on that again and again.

Again that happens to every team. We were one of only 3 teams that won 13 games this season. Baltimore won 14, but I'm thinking the league just hasn't quite figured out to stop their running game yet... it will.

It's hard to win in this league and especially hard to win over 80% of your games. I get that we lost some heart breakers and everyone is looking for something to point at and blame, but I don't think Sean Payton's offense is it. The only unexplainable and/or unacceptable loss this season was to the Falcons in early November. Losing to the Rams with Drew going down in the first quarter and the refs taking points off the board can't be blamed on SP's offense. Losing to the 49ers in a shootout where our offense marched down the field and scored on what should've been a game winning drive, after putting up 46 points on the #2 defense in the league can't either.

And even this last loss... the one that's got everyone all twisted up. We were down 20 to 10 in the 4th quarter and that offense, which struggled all day, figured things out and found a way to tie it up and send it to overtime. A fumble by Drew, a false start on a fake punt that would've been a first down, a missed FG before half by Lutz who is usually money from 43 yards, especially in the dome... There's a LOT of reasons we didn't win and advance. And yes, the offense struggled, but I'm not sure it was the game plan or play calling. You can blame our OL, Drew, or even our skill players for not executing, at least that's where I would start. But honestly, I'm leaning more towards the Vikings defense playing one of their best games of the season.

 

[Saint Spud]

No one is denying Coach Payton's regular season excellence, he can call it up with the best of them in the regular season.

The issue comes up in the post-season where you go against the Best Defensive minds, with elite personnel and everything ramps up from a physicality, and intensity stand point. You meet the Mike Zimmer's and the Wade Phillips type of Defensive coaches who know all your playcalling tendencies, and tend to exploit them.

As an Offense you have to be able to make adjustments, expect unexpected Defensive coverages, and rush packages, and come out with out of the box playcalls that break tendencies and catch Defenses off guard and that just hasn't happened the past 3 playoff exits, Zimmer has gotten this Offense twice, and Wade once in a span of three pretty disappointing play-off exits.

There’s definitely some truth to this.

Obviously the coach O comparison brings in a lot of other factors. O is not and never will be a playcaller. So bringing in someone to assist Ensminger wasn’t the same.

But the point about Payton getting a little more help could be a valid one. Although as Ellias pointed out, a lot of the “pass happy” stuff is as a result of Drew changing plays. For better and worse.

 

[jbourque]

Sean Payton has a system he believes in. He caught lightning in a bottle and won a Super Bowl with it in 2009. Since then, our offense has centered around trying to replicate the offensive pieces to execute his offense. It appears to me his offensive system is paramount to player abilities at times. He doesn’t evolve. It’s the same system over and over. It’s a good system without question. Can he evolve or a remain coach with a system he’s reluctant to change?

This is no knock on Payton. When Brees went down I thought he displayed the ability to adapt his offense. Now it seems it was born more out of necessity as opposed to recognizing we could be a more effective running team.

 

[Saint Spud]

Sean Payton has a system he believes in. He caught lightning in a bottle and won a Super Bowl with it in 2009. Since then, our offense has centered around trying to replicate the offensive pieces to execute his offense. It appears to me his offensive system is paramount to player abilities at times. He doesn’t evolve. It’s the same system over and over. It’s a good system without question. Can he evolve or a remain coach with a system he’s reluctant to change?

I don’t think that’s accurate at all. In fact, it’s quite the opposite.

We never had anyone like Taysom. Payton found ways to get him the ball and designed packages which have evolved as Taysom has shown what he can do.

Payton tailors the offense to his personnel as much as, if not more than, anyone. The most important player in your personnel is the QB. With a very accurate but physically limited (arm strength) QB like Brees, you HAVE to have weapons who can make plays in the 5-20 yard range like Kamara (or Bush or Sproles) and Cook (or Shockey or Graham). But it’s not that Payton is doing all that because he is stubborn wrt his system. It’s because that’s what suits his QB best.

With that said, there are times we appear a bit inflexible DURING games. But it’s hard to know if that’s bc Payton needs assistance with playcalling, Brees checks out of runs a bit too much or some combination.

 

[No2DC]

I was ready to move on from SP during the non-payoff stretch and I have to admit I was wrong. Bringing in Ireland helped us with young talent. That said, his biggest challenge will be post Drew. Can he put a similar team on the field without a HOF qb? I think they have been laying the building blocks for the past few years but we will not know until they pull the post Drew trigger( I'm not saying it has to happen now, just that it will at some point) . Not too many coaches have been able to win rings with multiple QBs. Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, and I not sure who else.

 

[saintszks]

I get frustrated with Payton and his play calling as much as as anyone BUT if we step back you’ll realize that we just kept hurting ourselves. Although Payton should not have gone stupid aggressive before halftime (Vikings game), you would think a player of Brees’ caliber wouldn’t throw that ball up to Ginn. That INT was all on Brees. THEN, we drive the ball prior to halftime only for Lutz miss. Towards the end of the game we drive AGAIN, only for Brees to fumble. Yes, some of the play calling was frustrating, but Brees really cost us. The game came down to the very last possession when in reality it never should’ve. We got outplayed and STILL should’ve won. Very frustrating.

 

[busdriver]

They had the talent. to win that game.

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

We also saw this for a bit in 2011 when Payton suffered his ACL injury and had to entrust play-calling duties to Carmichael for a stretch, saw some fresh concepts and different situational play calling. Was a breath of fresh air.

Carmichael's first game calling the plays we beat the Colts 62-7.

 

[jbourque]

I don’t think that’s accurate at all. In fact, it’s quite the opposite.

We never had anyone like Taysom. Payton found ways to get him the ball and designed packages which have evolved as Taysom has shown what he can do.

Payton tailors the offense to his personnel as much as, if not more than, anyone. The most important player in your personnel is the QB. With a very accurate but physically limited (arm strength) QB like Brees, you HAVE to have weapons who can make plays in the 5-20 yard range like Kamara (or Bush or Sproles) and Cook (or Shockey or Graham). But it’s not that Payton is doing all that because he is stubborn wrt his system. It’s because that’s what suits his QB best.

With that said, there are times we appear a bit inflexible DURING games. But it’s hard to know if that’s bc Payton needs assistance with playcalling, Brees checks out of runs a bit too much or some combination.

Point taken but I believe Taysom is an outlier. He’s just God’s gift to football and fits in with Payton’s offensive philosophy-He likes toys. Payton still operates running back by platoon, a scat back of some sort and relies more on the pass than the run.

I have never seen Payton with Brees under center come in and execute a heavy run game plan despite however good the opposing secondary was. It seems everything is to set up the pass and we’re just not always suited for it.

Maybe my perspective to just his use of the running game and me wishing he would evolve and be more open minded.

 

[SRAddict]

I hope the entire Saints offensive staff watch the niners run all over the vikings today

 

[SaintsBrah]

I hope the entire Saints offensive staff watch the niners run all over the vikings today

Murray was killing it

 

[LonghornSaintsFan]

Jesus, these threads have gotten more insane even more so after the last 2 playoff losses. I almost wish the refs epically screwed us over again so these types of threads can stop.

 

[Trey W.]

Do we know how much Drew Brees audibles out of plays?

I was wondering the same thing. Or how much input Drew and Carmichael have. Do they ever confront Payton and he over rides them. How many times has Drew gone off script and ran something different than what Payton called because he saw something on the field?

 

[sfidc3]

Do we know how much Drew Brees audibles out of plays?

Exactly, I'm convinced it is Brees that sometimes stunts the growth of the running game....that must change if he is around next year (and I think he will be)....SP has learned from mistakes before, sometimes not as quickly as we like and I think he will again...we will see....

And keep in mind there are a ton of teams out there that would be thrilled to have him as a head coach, he is still one of the best out there....