Pennsylvania grand jury report on Catholic priests' alleged sexual abuses. (2 Viewers)

[Brennan77]

So, asking as a non-believer, how do people reconcile the idea that the Catholic church is "ordained by God," yet has condoned and facilitated the systemic sexual abuse of children for generations?

Your question is a good one.

The gospels teach us that we are to expect the worst from even the most foundational of Church leaders. Judas betrays Christ to his death. Jesus proclaims Peter the rock upon which the Church will be built, knowing full well that he would deny him when it counted. Yet we are given the promise that evil would not prevail, no matter how imminent defeat appears.

Matthew 16:17-19
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

I do not follow Christ and count myself as a member of his Bride, the Church, because of my own holiness or the holiness of others. We are all sinners, some in the most heinous of ways. I do so because I have no where else to go for this is where I am given the life and grace of Christ in the sacraments, most especially the Eucharist, which is the "source and summit of the Christian life".

We are blessed to have several entries of wisdom from holy and arguably prophetic men in the last century. They keep popping up and this came across to me this morning, from J R R Tolkien, in a letter to his son on the subject of priestly corruption and failure.

You speak of ‘sagging faith’, however, that is quite another matter. In the last resort faith is an act of will, inspired by love. Our love may be chilled and our will eroded by the spectacle of the shortcomings, folly, and even sins of the Church and its ministers, but I do not think that one who has once had faith goes back over the line for these reasons (least of all anyone with any historical knowledge). ‘Scandal’ at most is an occasion of temptation – as indecency is to lust, which it does not make but arouses. It is convenient because it tends to turn our eyes away from ourselves and our own faults to find a scapegoat. But the act of will of faith is not a single moment of final decision: it is a permanent indefinitely repeated act > state which must go on – so we pray for ‘final perseverance’. The temptation to ‘unbelief’ (which really means rejection of Our Lord and His claims) is always there within us. Part of us longs to find an excuse for it outside us. The stronger the inner temptation the more readily and severely shall we be ‘scandalized’ by others. I think I am as sensitive as you (or any other Christian) to the scandals, both of clergy and laity. I have suffered grievously in my life from stupid, tired, dimmed, and even bad priests; but I now know enough about myself to be aware that I should not leave the church (which for me would mean leaving the allegiance of Our Lord) for any such reasons: I should leave because I did not believe, and should not believe anymore, even if I had never met anyone in orders who was not both wise and saintly. I should deny the Blessed Sacrament, that is: call our Lord a fraud to His face.

If He is a fraud and the Gospels fraudulent – that is: garbled accounts of a demented megalomaniac (which is the only alternative), then of course the spectacle exhibited by the Church (in the sense of clergy) in history and today is simply evidence of a gigantic fraud. If not, however, then this spectacle is alas! only what was to be expected: it began before the first Easter, and it does not affect faith at all – except that we may and should be deeply grieved. But we should grieve on our Lord’s behalf and for Him, associating ourselves with the scandalized heirs not with the saints, not crying out that we cannot ‘take’ Judas Iscariot, or even the absurd & cowardly Simon Peter, or the silly women like James’ mother, trying to push her sons.

It takes a fantastic will to unbelief to suppose that Jesus never really ‘happened’, and more to suppose that he did not say the things recorded all of him – so incapable of being ‘invented’ by anyone in the world at that time: such as ‘before Abraham came to be I am’ (John viii). ‘He that hath seen me hath seen the Father’ (John ix); or the promulgation of the Blessed Sacrament in John v: ‘He that he eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life.’ We must therefore either believe in Him and in what he said and take the consequences; or reject him and take the consequences. I find it for myself difficult to believe that anyone who has ever been to Communion, even once, with at least a right intention, can ever again reject Him without grave blame. (However, He alone knows each unique soul and its circumstances.)

Now that's an answer directly to your question. I have wanted to comment, however, specifically on the revelations of the PA grand jury and the new accusations against the pope. I am angry and there's a lot to unpack so I have withheld comment in this thread. I'm not sure I am ready to do so at length but I will say that I think we need investigations like this throughout the country. Only the truth, no matter how horrible, can begin to heal the wounds. The victims and the innocent faithful deserve it. I was encouraged by the secular media's handling of this but I fear that once the true nature of these crimes and the deviant subculture that enabled them are discovered, they will lose their stomach for it. You can already see it in certain publications' framing of Vigano along ideological lines as opposed to dealing with the veracity and content of his claims. I hope I'm wrong.

FWIW, I find the accusations against the pope to be entirely believable. His response to the matter does nothing to discourage that position and his trusted allies such as Cupich (cardinal in Chicago) have been even more abhorrent in their answers.

10 days ago, this satire article was published. Pope Says He Will Address Sex Abuse Scandal Once He's Finished Talking About Climate Change

Yesterday, Cupich says that the pope should not go down the 'rabbit hole' of answering the allegations because he's got more important things to do, like talk about the environment and immigration. You've got to be kidding me!

 

[SaintJ]

I would have felt better if Francis had specifically directed his bishops to call the cops when these accusations are brought.

This is not difficult to add to an encyclical. Protecting the flock sometimes demands that earthly forces be brought to bear. If somebody comes in and starts shooting up a church, or carefully embezzling thousands from a parish over a course of years, while you might be praying over it, in meantime you you are abso*******lutely calling law enforcement. This should be no different.

 

[Brennan77]

I would have felt better if Francis had specifically directed his bishops to call the cops when these accusations are brought.

This is not difficult to add to an encyclical. Protecting the flock sometimes demands that earthly forces be brought to bear. If somebody comes in and starts shooting up a church, or carefully embezzling thousands from a parish over a course of years, while you might be praying over it, in meantime you you are abso*******lutely calling law enforcement. This should be no different.

There are procedures and policies that were put in place in the early 2000's that have proven to be very effective, at least with the information we have. The report out of PA are all incidents prior to that period. Still, someone like Mccarrick should never have been promoted and trusted as an adviser and friend. If the report that Benedict had sanctioned him to a private life out of public ministry is true, then the sanctions were ignored and then lifted by Francis. Whoa! If verified, the laity must insist that Francis step aside.

 

[You]

There is a rift being revealed in the church between the conservative side and pro pope “liberal” side. Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò has made some stunning accusations about pope Francis. Arch Vigano is very conservative. He thinks the church has become over run with homosexuality and ties this to the sexual misconduct issues. I know i know...

The problem I have is that his accusations implicate himself. Why didn’t he step in when he knew about the issues with Cardinal McCarrick instead of waiting years to now reveal the scandal.

It’s a real mess for sure. As a catholic, it’s causing some anxiety within my family. I feel conflicted.

 

[SystemShock]

There are procedures and policies that were put in place in the early 2000's

Do they include "calling the police"?

that have proven to be very effective, at least with the information we have.

And this information comes from...

 

[coldseat]

There are procedures and policies that were put in place in the early 2000's that have proven to be very effective, at least with the information we have. The report out of PA are all incidents prior to that period. Still, someone like Mccarrick should never have been promoted and trusted as an adviser and friend. If the report that Benedict had sanctioned him to a private life out of public ministry is true, then the sanctions were ignored and then lifted by Francis. Whoa! If verified, the laity must insist that Francis step aside.

The push to oust Francis is coming form the predictable conservative wing of the Catholic church, who have despised him all along. If they do succeed in pushing him out, they will no doubt elect a Pope who will return the Church to even more conservative and strongly patriarchal posture that allowed this culture of abuses to flourish for decades. That is not what the Catholic church needs right now. This opinion piece highlights this narrative and the problems with it. The conservatives in the church have learned well from their Republican allies in politics, never let a crisis go to waste.

Of course, the church needs to be held accountable for the scandal -- up to its highest leader. But there is little evidence that the new calls to oust Pope Francis are being made in good faith over genuine concern for children abused over decades -- or the culture of male impunity that enabled it.

No, this current wave of outrage is led by the conservative clergy, via a recent 11-page later from Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò -- the former top Vatican diplomat in the United States, who Francis chose to replace. Viganò alleges that a "homosexual current" led to the sexual abuse scandal and that Francis covered for a cardinal he knew was a "sexual predator." The Pope's response: "I will not say a single word on this."

It is important to note here that Viganò and other doctrinally conservative Catholics don't like the Pope's more progressive doctrine: things like caring for the poor, speaking out for immigrants, and easing up on the animosity toward gays and divorced women. In fact, those same conservatives have defended and even promoted the very aspects of the Catholic Church that allowed sex abuse and other appalling treatment of children to thrive: lionizing male power, subordinating women, and stigmatizing homosexuality.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/28/opinions/the-pope-probably-should-resign-filipovic/index.html

 

[SystemShock]

So, asking as a non-believer, how do people reconcile the idea that the Catholic church is "ordained by God," yet has condoned and facilitated the systemic sexual abuse of children for generations?

I am reminded of Tracie Harris, who said:

You have a god that watches and says "I'm shutting the door, you go ahead and rape that child, but when you are done, I am going to punish you". The difference between your god and I, If I can stop a person from raping a child, I would.

 

[Brennan77]

There is a rift being revealed in the church between the conservative side and pro pope “liberal” side. Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò has made some stunning accusations about pope Francis. Arch Vigano is very conservative. He thinks the church has become over run with homosexuality and ties this to the sexual misconduct issues. I know i know...

The problem I have is that his accusations implicate himself. Why didn’t he step in when he knew about the issues with Cardinal McCarrick instead of waiting years to now reveal the scandal.

It’s a real mess for sure. As a catholic, it’s causing some anxiety within my family. I feel conflicted.

This is exactly what I was talking about in the previous post. I'm very suspicious of the efforts to discredit the accusations along ideological lines. The fact is that 81% of the sexual abuse cases involve men (priests) and post pubescent boys between the ages of 12-17. There's a population of priests who do not and perhaps never intended to live their vows of celibacy. They have preyed upon young people who were entrusted to them and have preyed upon vulnerable seminarians. I've encountered them and I know others who have been solicited directly. They promote and protect their own. But of course we can't have this information verified and publicized because it's a bad look for the cause of normalizing certain progressive concerns within the Church. So rather than dealing with facts and getting to the bottom of the problem through authentic investigation, we will be sold an ideological narrative. What an insult to the victims. I'll be glad if Vigano's accusations are untrue. But there are many reasons to believe them to be credible and worthy of investigation, and I'm grateful the US Conference of Bishops has called for it. Let the sunlight in, watch the cockroaches scurry, then stomp them out. It's time.

 

[You]

I agree, it is time to shine a big light on the church. No more protection.

The system in place has allowed the church to become a beacon for the sexually corrupt.

No more

 

[coldseat]

This is exactly what I was talking about in the previous post. I'm very suspicious of the efforts to discredit the accusations along ideological lines. The fact is that 81% of the sexual abuse cases involve men (priests) and post pubescent boys between the ages of 12-17. There's a population of priests who do not and perhaps never intended to live their vows of celibacy. They have preyed upon young people who were entrusted to them and have preyed upon vulnerable seminarians. I've encountered them and I know others who have been solicited directly. They promote and protect their own. But of course we can't have this information verified and publicized because it's a bad look for the cause of normalizing certain progressive concerns within the Church. So rather than dealing with facts and getting to the bottom of the problem through authentic investigation, we will be sold an ideological narrative. What an insult to the victims. I'll be glad if Vigano's accusations are untrue. But there are many reasons to believe them to be credible and worthy of investigation, and I'm grateful the US Conference of Bishops has called for it. Let the sunlight in, watch the cockroaches scurry, then stomp them out. It's time.

So you believe the problem is just plain "homosexuality"? Is that what you mean by "progressive concerns"?

 

[Booker]

The calls for Francis' resignation do appear to be coming from people who were already opposed to his papacy. It's not like this all just developed over the last few years -- it's been going on for generations (centuries? millennia?), long before Francis' ascension -- so in that regard Vigano comes across a little like Captain Renault at the card table. Francis should certainly be held accountable for his own actions, but this goes much deeper than one papal administration.

Your question is a good one...

By the way, thank you for your response. As one of the foremost Catholics on the board (particularly in terms of your doctrinal knowledge) I do appreciate and respect the perspective you bring. Just to follow up, I wasn't so much asking if this ongoing issue with the church has shaken your faith as a Christian (which you addressed with the Tolkien quote) so much as your faith in the Catholic church as an institution. I think you answered that a little indirectly here...

. I am angry and there's a lot to unpack so I have withheld comment in this thread. I'm not sure I am ready to do so at length but I will say that I think we need investigations like this throughout the country. Only the truth, no matter how horrible, can begin to heal the wounds.

...but is there a point that you could see yourself ever saying "enough is enough" and renouncing your membership?

 

[Booker]

I am reminded of Tracie Harris, who said:

Yep. To me, violence and abuse committed against the helpless, particularly children, is a pretty good reason to question the existence of a benevolent, all knowing and all powerful god in general, but when the abuse actually takes place at the hands of those who supposedly act as the ordained agents of that supposed god -- seriously, that's forked up.

And for what it's worth, it's not like using religious authority to sexually abuse children is just isolated to Catholicism. Off the top of my head, fundamentalist Islam and Mormonism have been known to arrange marriages between child-brides and grown men; some sects of Islam promote the genital mutilation known as female circumcision; some fundamentalist Christians deny their children proper medical care in favor of faith healing, even to the point of death.

 

[Brennan77]

So you believe the problem is just plain "homosexuality"? Is that what you mean by "progressive concerns"?

No. It's not that simple. There are a lot of priests and faithful who experience same sex attraction and seek to live holy and chaste lives just as anyone else who wants to be faithful.

The problem is deviancy, evil, and corruption.

By the way, thank you for your response. As one of the foremost Catholics on the board (particularly in terms of your doctrinal knowledge) I do appreciate and respect the perspective you bring. Just to follow up, I wasn't so much asking if this ongoing issue with the church has shaken your faith as a Christian (which you addressed with the Tolkien quote) so much as your faith in the Catholic church as an institution. I think you answered that a little indirectly here...

...but is there a point that you could see yourself ever saying "enough is enough" and renouncing your membership?

I tried to be as direct as possible but could have been more explicit I suppose. I believe the Catholic Church is the one church founded by Jesus. It is where I encounter the presence and grace of God through the sacraments, most specifically the Eucharist. If it is not true, then there is no where else to go. So the answer to your last question is an emphatic no.

 

[coldseat]

No. It's not that simple. There are a lot of priests and faithful who experience same sex attraction and seek to live holy and chaste lives just as anyone else who wants to be faithful.

The problem is deviancy, evil, and corruption.

How does that translate to progressive concerns? Or I guess I should ask, what are the progressive concerns you're referring too?

 

[Saint_Ward]

There is a rift being revealed in the church between the conservative side and pro pope “liberal” side. Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò has made some stunning accusations about pope Francis. Arch Vigano is very conservative. He thinks the church has become over run with homosexuality and ties this to the sexual misconduct issues. I know i know...

The problem I have is that his accusations implicate himself. Why didn’t he step in when he knew about the issues with Cardinal McCarrick instead of waiting years to now reveal the scandal.

It’s a real mess for sure. As a catholic, it’s causing some anxiety within my family. I feel conflicted.

Honestly, because I think the political infection has definitely spread to the ranks of the church. He's trying to score points.

Just do what's right.