Perspective on where our defense stands (1 Viewer)

I posted this on the Galette thread in response to someone saying that after they watched a video of Galette, they realized that maybe our defense isn't as bad as we think:


>>Honestly, I think if someone posted a highlight video from last season of the defense... and if it were possible to view it in a vacuum, without the context of "worst ranked defense in NFL history", there'd probably be a lot more optimism.

I've said this before, this was a mediocre defense before Spagnuolo got here. I won't include the Super Bowl season when discussing personnel. So the changes from 2010/2011 to 2012 are this (feel free to add, this is straight off the top of my head):

Added: 2 100+ tacklers at LB. Added one of the league's best run-stopping NTs. And include Cam Jordan as a 2nd year player--much better than he was as a rookie.

Lost: Tracy Porter.


Do we really think Porter had that big of an impact? That our defense went from mediocre to worst in NFL history?


Scheme/philosophy can transform a unit, for better or worse. I understand the Spagnuolo logic. "Let's install a system that is sustainable and not as gimmicky, high risk/high reward as what GW had." I agreed, was 100% on board. And then I saw how much a rough (very rough) learning curve negatively affected our team.

As a coach, I am NOT a fan of the Buddy Ryan coaching tree... the coaches, the scheme... the philosophy, fine... I like aggression, but I hate the hyperbolic flexing and the stubborn commitment to the blitz. But regardless of my personal reservations, we have seen that with an aggressive scheme/philosophy on defense, this is a team that was able to win 36 games in 3 seasons. Our defense may never be the most feared, shut-down, dominant defense in the league. But that doesn't mean it can't be aggressive, physical and opportunistic (without all the hyperbolic BS).

The defense is not far off. And I can't wait to watch Rob Ryan get all the credit in the media for "turning this defense around... just phenomenal"... and I'll laugh. Getting rid of Spagnuolo is as important--if not more--than bringing in Rob Ryan.

Point being, the defense is not far off and neither is this team. Personnel-wise, we're better than we were in 2010/2011. Apparently a lot gets attributed on here to guys "getting old." Apparently Jon Vilma, Will Smith, Jabari Greer all picked the same season to fall off the cliff. Malcolm Jenkins, Patrick Robinson, they all picked the exact same time to forget how to cover. And 4 perennial 100+ tacklers forgot how to tackle (including Roman Harper). The list goes on.

The personnel is there. It may not be a bunch of pro bowlers, but this team has the talent that if someone comes in, willing to play the players to their strengths rather than trying to pigeon-hole them... this can be a very good COMPLIMENTARY defense.

Last time we had that, we won a Super Bowl.


Let's get somewhere in the ballpark of reality. I want this team to win as badly as anyone but the personnel is there? We think it is worse based upon "the worst defense in history" label? Let's just review the first three games of last season. Washington...over 450 yards with a QB that was playing in his first game. Second game....Carolina...over 460 yards with a QB that is a lazy egomaniac and only one step closer to sanity than Vince Young. Third game....KC...over 500 yards to a team that couldn't get a yard or a point against anyone else. We were all staring in amazement at the total inability of this defense to cover anyone, tackle, or rush the passer. Nobody was cheering the talent on this defense outside of a few hardcore homers that would think we had a ton of talent if you brought out the Army defense and put a Saints uniform on them. Most people here and every unbiased observer states that we have a serious lack of talent from bad drafting, bad coaching, and signing the wrong players. In reality, this defense has not recovered from switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 after the Dome Patrol fizzled away. This is not to say that it cannot be improved or people we have cannot be utilized better to play to what limited strengths they have but we do not have a single starter that would see the field on any of the top 5 defenses in this league.....maybe even the top 10. The only one that would have a prayer would be Cam Jordan and that would be very iffy. Our only real hope for next year, outside of an outrageous draft and masterful free agent signings, is to go all out aggressive and let the chips fall where they may.
 
Let's get somewhere in the ballpark of reality. I want this team to win as badly as anyone but the personnel is there? We think it is worse based upon "the worst defense in history" label? Let's just review the first three games of last season. Washington...over 450 yards with a QB that was playing in his first game. Second game....Carolina...over 460 yards with a QB that is a lazy egomaniac and only one step closer to sanity than Vince Young. Third game....KC...over 500 yards to a team that couldn't get a yard or a point against anyone else. We were all staring in amazement at the total inability of this defense to cover anyone, tackle, or rush the passer. Nobody was cheering the talent on this defense outside of a few hardcore homers that would think we had a ton of talent if you brought out the Army defense and put a Saints uniform on them. Most people here and every unbiased observer states that we have a serious lack of talent from bad drafting, bad coaching, and signing the wrong players. In reality, this defense has not recovered from switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 after the Dome Patrol fizzled away. This is not to say that it cannot be improved or people we have cannot be utilized better to play to what limited strengths they have but we do not have a single starter that would see the field on any of the top 5 defenses in this league.....maybe even the top 10. The only one that would have a prayer would be Cam Jordan and that would be very iffy. Our only real hope for next year, outside of an outrageous draft and masterful free agent signings, is to go all out aggressive and let the chips fall where they may.

So all those guys who were part of the 2009 defense that won a Super Bowl and the 2011 defense that helped us win 13 games... none of them belong in the league.

I don't see how I'm not in the "ballpark of reality" when I say a defense--that was the vast majority the same as those 2 aforementioned defenses (with some UPGRADES)... what exactly in that statement earns me a ticket to crazy town? You're harping on the rankings, and I'm not discounting them. Nor did I EVER say that this would be a top 10 defense next year because it wasn't a top 10 defense before.

But it's a defense that with a few tweaks can get us back to the Super Bowl, so long as this offense gets back to doing what it does with Sean Payton on the sidelines.

Anyway, I don't appreciate the "back in the ballpark of reality" statement, like I didn't actually explain myself extremely thoroughly and back up everything I was saying with empirical evidence rather than emotion--that evidence being that the ONE significant difference between the historically worst defense in the NFL and the defenses that helped us win 36 games in 3 years is the defensive coordinator.

Now tell me, please, where am I so delusional and such a hardcore homer?
 
So all those guys who were part of the 2009 defense that won a Super Bowl and the 2011 defense that helped us win 13 games... none of them belong in the league.

I don't see how I'm not in the "ballpark of reality" when I say a defense that was the vast majority--the same as those 2 aforementioned defense with some UPGRADES... I don't see how it wasn't. You're harping on the rankings, and I'm not discounting them. Nor did I EVER say that this would be a top 10 defense next year because it wasn't a top 10 defense before.

But it's a defense that with a few tweaks can get us back to the Super Bowl, so long as this offense gets back to doing what it does with Sean Payton on the sidelines.

Anyway, I don't appreciate the "back in the ballpark of reality" statement, like I didn't actually explain myself extremely thoroughly and back up everything I was saying with empirical evidence rather than emotion--that evidence being that the ONE significant difference between the historically worst defense in the NFL and the defenses that helped us win 36 games in 3 years is the defensive coordinator.

Now tell me, please, where am I so delusional and such a hardcore homer?

This defense will get us nowhere. The offense will get us there or not. We can only hope the defense doesn't get in the way. Another significant difference is that we had an offense that was able to overcome a bad defense and the last few years not so much. You have stated that the defense isn't what it was, which is the worst ever. It is what it is, not what we want it to be. Our defense kept it's head above water (barely) the last
few years, under Williams, by relentlessly blitzing to try and mask obvious deficiencies and it worked to some degree. If not for the pressure by the offense and every play blitzing by the defense we wouldn't have won 13 games in 3 years combined. Our defense would have been really exposed. But, this year the offense was down a bit and the defense was helpless. So, once again, I truly feel, coach, that our defense has very few NFL quality players. We will see who is right as this tripe about "man to man" corners and "great players, bad scheme" will be put to the test since the chances are most that played last year will be here next year and we are trying ANOTHER scheme. I hope to God some more are gone but I am not holding my breath for too many.
 
We're all going to look smarter by saying "the 2013 defense will not be great but will be better than the 2012 defense."

Where I disagree with the OP is the relative quality of the current talent. Spagnuolo made a complete hash of things, but I don't think he was keeping a bunch of these guys from the Pro Bowl, either. Neither the 2010 nor the 2011 defense was all that great (despite the paper-thin facade of a "top 10" ranking in 2010 against a one-in-a-million favorable schedule of opposing offenses), and we really haven't added a single difference-making defender since then.

Jordan still has upside and was a good pick. Lofton was a solid pickup. Bunkley will likely be steady albeit a little pricey for "steady." Other than that, none of the other FA signings or draft picks are anything but "career-year projection" guys, where if you're in a fantasy league you dream of the upside of your roster while ignoring the previous relative lack of production.

While guys like Galette, Wilson, Hicks, Casillas and IAQ have shown some professionalism and flashes of athleticism, they've also disappeared for long stretches, and that includes when they were here under Williams. Right now, as legitimate NFL starters I've got Jordan, Lofton, Bunkley and Greer (I am giving him a mulligan for career steadiness), not one of whom is anybody you have to game-plan around. Everybody else is either too old (Smith, Vilma, Shanle), had chances to stand out in their career but not gotten you real excited you're sure they're more than JAG (Hawthorne, Claiborne, Harper (try to be objective about his limitations compared to top-line safeties), Robinson, Jenkins, Mack) or we're just hoping (Wilson, Gallette, Hicks, IAQ, White).

I am not so excited about the cupboard. Oddly, Ryan, who is probably in the JAG category when you think about it, given his career track record, is the one we're hoping surprises us with the big step up, because there's a real talent deficiency here that's not going away between now and Labor Day unless everybody steps up all at once, and....that's not the way to bet.
 
At the end of the day i think our 2013 Defense will be better than our 2012 D, but still be mediocre. Hopefullt we'll be good in key areas (redzone, 3rd down, t.o.'s)

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

All I ask for is the 20th ranked defense. As horrible as that sounds we would be one of the best teams in the league with that.
 
All I ask for is the 20th ranked defense. As horrible as that sounds we would be one of the best teams in the league with that.

I agree. Even if we can get into the low 20's it will, most likely, be enough to do the job as long as Brees stays upright. It is in no way a ringing endorsement of our current roster but it is what it is, which is for the most part subpar.
 
We have middle of the pack talent. In 2012 we had horrible coaching.

To equate on-hand talent with the 2012 results is extremely shortsighted.

Smply adding a "difference maker" or two to this exact same unit places us right back into the middle of the pack, and maybe even higher.

We all saw what adding one "difference maker" did for us in 2009.

We have several candidtaes that may become that elite defender already on the roster. We'll probably add 1 or 2 more via the draft or free-agency.

No one is ignoring how bad we were in 2012, but basing our talent on-hand for 2013 on 2012 results is apples and oranges.
 
We're all going to look smarter by saying "the 2013 defense will not be great but will be better than the 2012 defense."

Where I disagree with the OP is the relative quality of the current talent. Spagnuolo made a complete hash of things, but I don't think he was keeping a bunch of these guys from the Pro Bowl, either. Neither the 2010 nor the 2011 defense was all that great (despite the paper-thin facade of a "top 10" ranking in 2010 against a one-in-a-million favorable schedule of opposing offenses), and we really haven't added a single difference-making defender since then.

Jordan still has upside and was a good pick. Lofton was a solid pickup. Bunkley will likely be steady albeit a little pricey for "steady." Other than that, none of the other FA signings or draft picks are anything but "career-year projection" guys, where if you're in a fantasy league you dream of the upside of your roster while ignoring the previous relative lack of production.

While guys like Galette, Wilson, Hicks, Casillas and IAQ have shown some professionalism and flashes of athleticism, they've also disappeared for long stretches, and that includes when they were here under Williams. Right now, as legitimate NFL starters I've got Jordan, Lofton, Bunkley and Greer (I am giving him a mulligan for career steadiness), not one of whom is anybody you have to game-plan around. Everybody else is either too old (Smith, Vilma, Shanle), had chances to stand out in their career but not gotten you real excited you're sure they're more than JAG (Hawthorne, Claiborne, Harper (try to be objective about his limitations compared to top-line safeties), Robinson, Jenkins, Mack) or we're just hoping (Wilson, Gallette, Hicks, IAQ, White).

I am not so excited about the cupboard. Oddly, Ryan, who is probably in the JAG category when you think about it, given his career track record, is the one we're hoping surprises us with the big step up, because there's a real talent deficiency here that's not going away between now and Labor Day unless everybody steps up all at once, and....that's not the way to bet.

I agree with your assessment for the most part. I don't think any of the legits you mentioned would play 20% of the time on a top 10 defense but they are all NFL caliber to some extent. But to think, at this point, that we have solid safeties, corners, or linebackers at this point is just ludicrous. Bearing in mind our ability to perform in the red zone last year gives me hope that we may somehow be able to cobble tohether a functional DL for our new system. But the back 8, using the new scheme as a basis, is vastly undermanned right now.
 
I vote that TCUDan posts every day during the offseason.
 
I dont know why this continues to get overlooked....our defensive ability is aided by our offensive output.

Its been that way since SP got here. Score early, score often and dont let up. That puts a huge amount of pressure on opposing HC/OC IN GAME, to make adjustments they normally wouldnt make. That adds an element to our defense that most teams dont have the ability to do.
 
Let's get somewhere in the ballpark of reality. I want this team to win as badly as anyone but the personnel is there? We think it is worse based upon "the worst defense in history" label? Let's just review the first three games of last season. Washington...over 450 yards with a QB that was playing in his first game. Second game....Carolina...over 460 yards with a QB that is a lazy egomaniac and only one step closer to sanity than Vince Young. Third game....KC...over 500 yards to a team that couldn't get a yard or a point against anyone else. We were all staring in amazement at the total inability of this defense to cover anyone, tackle, or rush the passer. Nobody was cheering the talent on this defense outside of a few hardcore homers that would think we had a ton of talent if you brought out the Army defense and put a Saints uniform on them. Most people here and every unbiased observer states that we have a serious lack of talent from bad drafting, bad coaching, and signing the wrong players. In reality, this defense has not recovered from switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 after the Dome Patrol fizzled away. This is not to say that it cannot be improved or people we have cannot be utilized better to play to what limited strengths they have but we do not have a single starter that would see the field on any of the top 5 defenses in this league.....maybe even the top 10. The only one that would have a prayer would be Cam Jordan and that would be very iffy. Our only real hope for next year, outside of an outrageous draft and masterful free agent signings, is to go all out aggressive and let the chips fall where they may.

:potd:
 

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