PI on Fake Punt called before (1 Viewer)

[DaveXA]

I couldn't find much, but I did find this:

"if a team does not present a standard punt formation (an equal number of players on either side of the snapper in a tight formation, and one player split out wide to either side) "

See Page 36; R9 S1 A3(2) : https://operations.nfl.com/media/3831/2019-playing-rules.pdf

And, FWIW, here's the blurb on non-PI on Punts (Page 33) [note the underlined (by me) part]:

ARTICLE 3. PERMISSIBLE ACTS BY BOTH TEAMS WHILE THE BALL IS IN THE AIR. Acts that are permissible by a player include, but are not limited to:
(a) Incidental contact by an opponent’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference.
(b) Inadvertent tangling of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball.
(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the pass is clearly uncatchable by the involved players, except as specified in 8-3-2 and 8-5-4 pertaining to blocking downfield by the offense.
(d) Laying a hand on an opponent that does not restrict him in an attempt to make a play on the ball.
(e) Contact by a player who has gained position on an opponent in an attempt to catch the ball.

Notes:
(1) When the ball is in the air, eligible offensive and defensive receivers have the same right to the path of the ball and are subject to the same restrictions.
(2) Acts that do not occur more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage are not pass interference, but could be offensive or defensive holding (see 12-1-3 and 12-1-6).
(3) Whenever a team presents an apparent punting formation and until the ball is kicked, defensive acts that normally constitute pass interference are permitted against the end man on the line of scrimmage, or against an eligible receiver behind the line of scrimmage who is aligned or in motion more than one yard outside the end man on the line, provided that the acts do not constitute illegal holding. Defensive holding, such as tackling a receiver, still can be called and result in a five-yard penalty from the previous spot, if accepted. Offensive pass interference rules still apply.

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It only says Five Yard Penalty - I don't see where Automatic First Down is addressed. So... even if the Holding was called, it seems that it would still be 4th and 13.


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Nope, all defensive holding penalties are automatic first downs. A hold in this case would have been an automatic first down.

 

[mjf504]

Take this one step further, if a punt is blocked is the ball a free ball for whoever to recover even if it is punted any yards down field with the ensuing play being a first down similar to a fumbled pumt catch? They both have come off the foot of the punter it’s just the time between the punt that’s different.

 

[sketchi]

Our QB was in a shotgun formation. Our WR is not our gunner. In a league where the rule definition overrides what we all see how do you determine intention

This x100, with no punter on the field, what makes it a "punt formation"? Our QB took a deep snap and they held and committed PI, a penalty no matter how you slice it.

 

[Live4theSaints]

So if there is no DPI then there is no OPI. I think we can take advantage of that.

 

[Quiet Storm]

So if there is no DPI then there is no OPI. I think we can take advantage of that.

According to the rules that people have posted they will call OPI but not DPI. I really don't get how it can go one way but the not the other?? Confusing..

 

[FullMonte]

According to the rules that people have posted they will call OPI but not DPI. I really don't get how it can go one way but the not the other?? Confusing..

Yes, the rule specifically states that OPI is still prohibited. When you think it through, it's not really confusing.

Defensive Pass Interference -- The defender covering the gunner is expecting a punt, and is going to be blocking the gunner all the way down the field. He is not, in his mind, defending against a pass, so any pass thrown at him will be coming without his knowledge, and would almost always result in pass interference being called against him. So, without the rule, teams could get cheap first downs by simply lining up in punt formation, and having the punter throw a pass towards a gunner who is engaged with a defender.

Offensive Pass Interference--The gunner is aware that a pass is coming, so he has full awareness of the whole situation, and is a receiver in his mindset. Any contact he makes to get away from the defender is being done as a receiver, and should be treated as such.

 

[Quiet Storm]

Yes, the rule specifically states that OPI is still prohibited. When you think it through, it's not really confusing.

Defensive Pass Interference -- The defender covering the gunner is expecting a punt, and is going to be blocking the gunner all the way down the field. He is not, in his mind, defending against a pass, so any pass thrown at him will be coming without his knowledge, and would almost always result in pass interference being called against him. So, without the rule, teams could get cheap first downs by simply lining up in punt formation, and having the punter throw a pass towards a gunner who is engaged with a defender.

Offensive Pass Interference--The gunner is aware that a pass is coming, so he has full awareness of the whole situation, and is a receiver in his mindset. Any contact he makes to get away from the defender is being done as a receiver, and should be treated as such.

You get out of here with that logic horse crap!

 

[gtaz21]

Great find... but it could be that this crew got it wrong... because he caught it, it was never an issue.

I need to add, I still don’t understand why! If it’s a pass play, why can’t you have PI? Why does punting or punt formation make any difference. It make no sence to me.

I don’t doubt it’s a rule, BUT I have to ask that how in over 40 years of playing, coaching and watching football have I NEVER heard this rule???

Because on a punt, the defender has to be able to block the gunner. Otherwise, there is no reason to have a punt returner because the gunner would be on him before the ball came down. If you're blocking, it can't be allowed to call PI on you because you would be called ON EVERY PUNT. A punt is a play where possession is changing hands every time in the in the middle of the play. So, you go from defender to offender when the ball goes in the air.

 

[The Moose]

According to the rules that people have posted they will call OPI but not DPI. I really don't get how it can go one way but the not the other?? Confusing..

Cuz buddy Ryan did not come up with a cheat the other way.

The rule is made for buddy Ryan's eagles teams. When his offense could not get a first down that is what he did numerous times.

In fact he was know to make his team punt on second or third down also because his defense scored better.

 

[Swimmer]

So what’s suppose to happen? Is the gunner allowed to just run down the field uncontested? The blockers don’t know it’s a pass play. That’s why it’s not a penalty. If it is a penalty it will be the death of punt returns.

It’s unfortunate that the Saints lost butany objective person can very easily understand why it was a no-penalty. The only thing I hated about the situation was that the “rules expert” decided to completely gloss over the question of defensive holding. If he would have said “there was nothing there out of the ordinary on their blocking of a gunner running down field on what they conceived was a punt”, I wouldn’t have been happy about the outcome, but I could understand the rationale.

Sammy - great point. I still have not seen a question answered after the game. I get the weird no PI rule and it's a clear rule, but does that allow the defenders to literally hold tight the jersey of the gunners during the entire kick? Thx somebody?

 

[birdog]

Sammy - great point. I still have not seen a question answered after the game. I get the weird no PI rule and it's a clear rule, but does that allow the defenders to literally hold tight the jersey of the gunners during the entire kick? Thx somebody?

Lots of fans here misses the central point....which is...

Is this play a punt, or a pass play?

If is a punt, the defender has every right to block the gunner......we all agree..

If this play is a pass play.....all the rules of a pass should be enforced....PERIOD!

The argument that the defender does not know what play this is....is silly..

Remember the "ferenghi rule #53? (just to continue with this absurdity)

Stupidity is not an excuse...

 

[Swimmer]

Lots of fans here misses the central point....which is...

Is this play a punt, or a pass play?

If is a punt, the defender has every right to block the gunner......we all agree..

If this play is a pass play.....all the rules of a pass should be enforced....PERIOD!

The argument that the defender does not know what play this is....is silly..

Remember the "ferenghi rule #53? (just to continue with this absurdity)

Stupidity is not an excuse...

Birdog - Thx much. But does it still allow clear holding of the gunners jerseys while the ball is in the air? Thx much

 

[birdog]

Birdog - Thx much. But does it still allow clear holding of the gunners jerseys while the ball is in the air? Thx much

Of course is a defensive PI, or defensive holding....call it what you like..

But this play is a pass play. The way the offense lines up is called "gamesmanship"...which means, the offense tries to keep the D confused, thinking is a punt, while the offense is setting up the pass!.....it happens all the time on 4th down plays, when the O tries to convert on that down.

But as soon the ball is snapped, it is quite clear this is a pass play. the fact that the defender thinks this is a punt, is his own fault....he should have looked back to make sure of that. But he is stupidly clings to his mistaken belief that this play is a punt....in which case the ferenghi rule of aqusition #53 applies....

"stupidity is not an excuse".....

I hope it helps....LMAO!

 

[Swimmer]

Of course is a defensive PI, or defensive holding....call it what you like..

But this play is a pass play. The way the offense lines up is called "gamesmanship"...which means, the offense tries to keep the D confused, thinking is a punt, while the offense is setting up the pass!.....it happens all the time on 4th down plays, when the O tries to convert on that down.

But as soon the ball is snapped, it is quite clear this is a pass play. the fact that the defender thinks this is a punt, is his own fault....he should have looked back to make sure of that. But he is stupidly clings to his mistaken belief that this play is a punt....in which case the ferenghi rule of aqusition #53 applies....

"stupidity is not an excuse".....

I hope it helps....LMAO!

Ferenghi rule = LMAO - Brilliant! Thx so much Dog, this really clears it up for me

 

[birdog]

Ferenghi rule = LMAO - Brilliant! Thx so much Dog, this really clears it up for me

But your question is a fair question....what infraction does the defender commit first? B/c the defender commits 2 faults on this play...

PI or DH? As both the receiver and the defender run stride by stride, the defender grabs the receiver's jersey first, then blocks him out of bounce. The refs should have called both penalties which should have resulted in a 1st down play. However, usually the lesser penalty is refused by the team against whom the infraction occurred, and the most serious infraction is accepted...in this case PI.

The refs blew both infractions, which raises suspicion that it was intentional on their part the refusal of acknowledgement of both infractions. They didn't call it b/c they didn't want to call it.

No wonder many fans of different teams call the refs "incompetent, or downright dishonest" when they make such a stupid decision.