Police Shootings / Possible Abuse Threads [merged] (3 Viewers)

[CapitalCitySaint]

In full disclosure he had allegedly assaulted a woman, he resisted arrest, police state they tried to use tasers first. The bit of video clearly shows the officers were not in imminent danger. Despite the build up, you can not excuse the police for shooting a man holding his hand up as if to surrender IMHO. The news station freezes the video at the moment the cops shoot:

EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: Fatal deputy-involved shooting

video is in link.

Im eager to hear the LEOs position on this shoot because the guy absolutely was resisting, and nonlethal means had proven unsuccessful, however the officer's lives were clearly not in danger. In your department would this be considered a good shoot?

I want to ask you a legitimate question - out of curiosity; I'm not trying to troll you. What is your objective with posting every police shooting video/article you come across?

I ask because (to me) it seems like the same arguments, judgments, accusations, facts, etc from the most articulate (and not so articulate) warriors of SR from both sides just keep having the same 'conversations' over and over again in every. single. one. of. these. threads.

You take a lot of time to find these stories, post & discuss them here and it seems you genuinely want reform, accountability and so on. So I want to know what you hope to accomplish here. Simply because the quantity of these threads you post with the same result. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. It feels like that is what is happening here.

I also wonder if there's anything you do/contribute to outside of SR that will help bring about the change that you desire.

Again, this is not meant to be a troll. I am interested in your responses. I think most reasonable people would agree that there is a lot of legitimacy on both sides of the fence. So where do you/we go from here? Discussing it relentlessly on SR doesn't appear to have much impact on change (from either side).

The police threads really bum me out and mostly I choose to stay out of them. Reading about cops being killed by citizens and citizens being killed by cops is exhausting and depressing. Reading the threads on these events is even more depressing.

Besides Oye and BigL doing their thing in the communities with citizens (in totally different capacities) and being willing to continue their professional education and self-improvement, I never see anybody come onto one of these threads and say "I feel very strongly about this, so today I went to a rally and had some great discussions with people for and against this and here's what I learned" or "today I wrote my congressman a letter" or "I'm a cop and asked my boss to send me to xyz training" or "I reached out to some social workers in my community to get some tips on how to deal with ...." - just some action that actually leads towards progress in both directions.

If you (you as in all of you, not you SWJJ in particular) have said that you've taken steps to do something and I failed to recognize it, I apologize & it was not intentional.

 

[Big_L]

I dont understand this statement at all. They made a decision to not show the actual shooting. How is it fueling propaganda. I read the comments on FB and its like all FB comments, a bunch of drivel. I dont understand what I was supposed to take away from reading all of the comments? Primarily people are mad that they did not show the shooting.

That station has a history of not reporting the facts. The footage was stopped prior to the shots being fired so we don't know what happened. How long do you think it takes for someone to drop their hands and produce a weapon? There's a family in AZ who can answer that question for their dead officer if you can't JJ. This video shows no misconduct by the officers much to your dismay I'm sure.

 

[SWJJ]

I want to ask you a legitimate question - out of curiosity; I'm not trying to troll you. What is your objective with posting every police shooting video/article you come across?

I ask because (to me) it seems like the same arguments, judgments, accusations, facts, etc from the most articulate (and not so articulate) warriors of SR from both sides just keep having the same 'conversations' over and over again in every. single. one. of. these. threads.

You take a lot of time to find these stories, post & discuss them here and it seems you genuinely want reform, accountability and so on. So I want to know what you hope to accomplish here. Simply because the quantity of these threads you post with the same result. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. It feels like that is what is happening here.

I also wonder if there's anything you do/contribute to outside of SR that will help bring about the change that you desire.

Again, this is not meant to be a troll. I am interested in your responses. I think most reasonable people would agree that there is a lot of legitimacy on both sides of the fence. So where do you/we go from here? Discussing it relentlessly on SR doesn't appear to have much impact on change (from either side).

The police threads really bum me out and mostly I choose to stay out of them. Reading about cops being killed by citizens and citizens being killed by cops is exhausting and depressing. Reading the threads on these events is even more depressing.

Besides Oye and BigL doing their thing in the communities with citizens (in totally different capacities) and being willing to continue their professional education and self-improvement, I never see anybody come onto one of these threads and say "I feel very strongly about this, so today I went to a rally and had some great discussions with people for and against this and here's what I learned" or "today I wrote my congressman a letter" or "I'm a cop and asked my boss to send me to xyz training" or "I reached out to some social workers in my community to get some tips on how to deal with ...." - just some action that actually leads towards progress in both directions.

If you (you as in all of you, not you SWJJ in particular) have said that you've taken steps to do something and I failed to recognize it, I apologize & it was not intentional.

Your questions are reasonable. And I'll make my best effort to answer them completely and earnestly. First my objective is awareness. I bring these instances to light on other mediums as well in IRL conversations. The first step in fixing a problem is admitting you have a problem. Its very obvious from the objections I receive from my threads than the majority of people dont realize or are unwilling to admit that there is a problem. There are community leaders, Los Angeles Actors, and State level politicians that frequent SR.com. We will accomplish nothing if we stay quiet about the problem. I have stated in previous thread that I have seen the profiling and abuse that happens on a daily basis in poor black neighborhood. I also recently shared personal experiences that have increased my awareness of the problems with how we police our community. If my voice (these threads) can reach others, and increase there awareness and sympathy to this cause, and perhaps a handful of them become voices for reform, and maybe as that grows we can make a difference. The worst part about this is the people most affected by police abuse and violence have almost no advocate. They lack the proper education to articulate proper objections and their actions are generally self destructive and do not help the situation. Its been going on for decades.

I know the number of threads can get tiresome, however its my position that you should be mad at the number of times its happening, not the number of times I am posting a thread about it. So many posters have their angst misplaced. We cannot just bury our heads in the sand and pretend its not happening. Its become so commonplace that it is no longer only happening in the poor and black communities.

I am married to a Social Worker, we attend lots of rallys, fundraisers, and generally very active in community efforts. I generally dont post about the things I am personally involved in because I feel it would seem like I am looking for praise or some other self-serving interests. I actively volunteer for politicians that I feel can help inspire change. Jeff Everson city councilman in shreveport is a friend of mine who I campaigned for and he helped get the Shreveport Fairness Ordinance passed helping protect Gays and Lesbians from discrimination. Here is a write up about the Ordinance. I also just got a phone call about working for Mark Rogers campaign. He is running for Caddo Parrish District attorney. His primary platform is that marijuana possession would be a fine only(no jail time). He would not put the tax payers on the hook to house and feed nonviolent drug offenders. He served as a public defender and feels he can help heal rifts between the community and the police force.

I welcome any further questions about my motives, actions, and efforts. I also welcome any suggestions as to ways I can make a difference. If anything above was ambiguous or unclear, please let me know and I will be glad to clarify.

 

[SWJJ]

That station has a history of not reporting the facts. The footage was stopped prior to the shots being fired so we don't know what happened. How long do you think it takes for someone to drop their hands and produce a weapon? There's a family in AZ who can answer that question for their dead officer if you can't JJ. This video shows no misconduct by the officers much to your dismay I'm sure.

If you think thats to my dismay, you dont understand me. I dont want officer misconduct. As far as what the tape shows I really think thats a cop out. The tape had been turned over to the police and the police offical says whats on the tape is "concerning" but asks that we wait until they can complete the investigation. You also dodged my questions. Assuming for a second that it went down as advertised by the newsstation and he shot the guy with his hands in the air, still holding a knife, after continually resisting arrest and after police have deployed nonlethal methods, is there any rational for the shooting if the officer's lives were not in imminent danger. For example if he threatened to murder the cops while holding a knife in his hand, refused orders to drop the knife, If that a valid reason to shoot him?

 

[Big_L]

If you think thats to my dismay, you dont understand me. I dont want officer misconduct. As far as what the tape shows I really think thats a cop out. The tape had been turned over to the police and the police offical says whats on the tape is "concerning" but asks that we wait until they can complete the investigation. You also dodged my questions. Assuming for a second that it went down as advertised by the newsstation and he shot the guy with his hands in the air, still holding a knife, after continually resisting arrest and after police have deployed nonlethal methods, is there any rational for the shooting if the officer's lives were not in imminent danger. For example if he threatened to murder the cops while holding a knife in his hand, refused orders to drop the knife, If that a valid reason to shoot him?

As I have stated earlier, I don't have the luxury of assuming. KSAT 12 has misreported stories before, so I can't assume they have it straight here. As a use of force instructor, I need more information than what you are supplying. What was his relative distance, how was he holding the knife, what less than lethal means failed and how did they fail? I'm not dodging, I simply don't have enough facts.

 

[SWJJ]

As I have stated earlier, I don't have the luxury of assuming. KSAT 12 has misreported stories before, so I can't assume they have it straight here. As a use of force instructor, I need more information than what you are supplying. What was his relative distance, how was he holding the knife, what less than lethal means failed and how did they fail? I'm not dodging, I simply don't have enough facts.

Fair enough. I do believe I saw it reported that they had tried to use a taser to subdue him but it was ineffective. the distance the video is shot from makes it difficult to judge the relative distance, but I would guestimate 6 feet or so.
I would also acknowledge that we can only see part of the other arm and the quality of the video make its it impossible to see how he is holding the knife. So I respect your not comfortable saying too much yet. It would be nice if they would release an unedited copy of the shooting, but I dont think its being misrepresented by the news station. They gave the police a copy and if they misrepresented the tape I suspect it would get them in some hot water. Can you elaborate on the stories that KSAT has misrepresented in the past?

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

Your questions are reasonable. And I'll make my best effort to answer them completely and earnestly. First my objective is awareness. I bring these instances to light on other mediums as well in IRL conversations. The first step in fixing a problem is admitting you have a problem. Its very obvious from the objections I receive from my threads than the majority of people dont realize or are unwilling to admit that there is a problem. There are community leaders, Los Angeles Actors, and State level politicians that frequent SR.com. We will accomplish nothing if we stay quiet about the problem. I have stated in previous thread that I have seen the profiling and abuse that happens on a daily basis in poor black neighborhood. I also recently shared personal experiences that have increased my awareness of the problems with how we police our community. If my voice (these threads) can reach others, and increase there awareness and sympathy to this cause, and perhaps a handful of them become voices for reform, and maybe as that grows we can make a difference. The worst part about this is the people most affected by police abuse and violence have almost no advocate. They lack the proper education to articulate proper objections and their actions are generally self destructive and do not help the situation. Its been going on for decades.

I know the number of threads can get tiresome, however its my position that you should be mad at the number of times its happening, not the number of times I am posting a thread about it. So many posters have their angst misplaced. We cannot just bury our heads in the sand and pretend its not happening. Its become so commonplace that it is no longer only happening in the poor and black communities.

I am married to a Social Worker, we attend lots of rallys, fundraisers, and generally very active in community efforts. I generally dont post about the things I am personally involved in because I feel it would seem like I am looking for praise or some other self-serving interests. I actively volunteer for politicians that I feel can help inspire change. Jeff Everson city councilman in shreveport is a friend of mine who I campaigned for and he helped get the Shreveport Fairness Ordinance passed helping protect Gays and Lesbians from discrimination. Here is a write up about the Ordinance. I also just got a phone call about working for Mark Rogers campaign. He is running for Caddo Parrish District attorney. His primary platform is that marijuana possession would be a fine only. He would not put the tax payers on the hook to house and feed nonviolent drug offenders. He served as a public defender and feels he can help hear rifts between the community and the police force.

I welcome any further questions about my motives, actions, and efforts. I also welcome any suggestions as to ways I can make a difference. If anything above was ambiguous or unclear, please let me know and I will be glad to clarify.

I appreciate your detailed response.

As for suggestions, I only have a few. While I understand that you are trying to bring awareness and many are unwilling to admit that there is a problem, sometimes continuously badgering people with the same information can have the opposite effect that you want it to.

Some people will respond with an open mind to the constant 'dialogue' (for lack of being able to come up with a better term). For others, if you keep trying to be overbearing with your message, it makes them avoid the situation & continue believing what they want because they think that you're just a complainer and what you have to say is not legitimate or they will disagree with you (even if they agree with what you are saying) and argue for the sake of arguing hoping that if they protest enough, you will move on to something else.

I think your approach to awareness on this board is beginning to push many towards the avoid or argue for the sake of arguing direction. Mostly because (I think) those who will discuss this with you rationally aren't in denial about the reality of the situation. Those aren't really the people you are trying to reach for awareness anyway, no?

You also tend to assign some level of blame towards the police initially when these reports come out before the whole story is revealed and a proper investigation is conducted based on the places you gathered your facts. Even if unintentional; your verbiage can lend to that. For example this:

"Im eager to hear the LEOs position on this shoot because the guy absolutely was resisting, and nonlethal means had proven unsuccessful, however the officer's lives were clearly not in danger. In your department would this be considered a good shoot?"

That is the part that people are going to see. When you add the "however" attachment to your statement, you've essentially diluted all the other good points and facts you've brought up in the eyes of those who think you have an agenda against police.

So, back to something I mentioned in my original post: all of these threads end up the same way with neither side budging and a bunch of rah-rah-ing. How do we reconstruct these conversations so that they are mutually beneficial and engaging for anyone who reads them so that we can strike a balance. Maybe I'm alone in my thoughts on this but I feel like status quo is getting this forum nowhere.

 

[ReefGuy]

SWJJ considering the thousands and thousands of interactions that police have with the general public on a daily basis the statistics do not support your idea that this happens too often.

You seem to have an agenda against law enforcement and believe that in the moment a criminals life is more valuable than the LEOs that have to deal with them. You clearly don't have a job where your life is at risk on a daily basis.

It doesn't matter if you agree with why you are stopped or questioned that's what court is for. Follow directions and these situations by and large get avoided.

There are far more videos on the internet of real life encounters with police where people are trying to have legal discussions and arguing with police and ignoring directions. They aren't killed or even treated poorly while arguing and verbally assaulting the officers. Everyone has a camera and a law degree these days.

I don't see you posting those videos. You have an agenda that you are pushing and it's largely falling on deaf ears because the stats do not support the narrative you are trying to push.

The fact that your wife is a social worker makes this even worse. You of all people should know the types of people police encounter on a daily basis and yet you seem to still want to give the benefit of the doubt to the perpetrator(s).

I could have you completely wrong but from a lurkers perspective you have an anti police agenda.

 

[Krodwhodat]

Mods can you combine all of these types of threads and the OP can just add to the thread every time he finds a new shooting?

 

[RazorOye]

Mods can you combine all of these types of threads and the OP can just add to the thread every time he finds a new shooting?

I'm just curious. I've seen this sentiment before and it strikes me as unfair and backhanded for many of the posts. For a few reasons.

First, other posters have started threads about police abuse. Some of the threads end up going on for several pages, including some with really constructive content from many posters. You use the word "he" and I can only assume the singular pronoun means SWJJ. To say that is, I think, to diminish the other contributions/interests of other posters. The way it's phrased, it doesn't seem like the motive behind your suggestion is convenience or expediency. It seems a bit more personally directed (and not really fair) than that.

Secondly, while SWJJ certainly posts more than others and will, from time to time, weigh on without really knowing all of the details, I do think there's a sincere attempt to have a discussion and I think his motives go beyond merely anti-police or police hate. Anyone saying that isn't really reading, imo. That would be akin to someone saying that Big L only praises/defends police. I don't think that would be fair to Big L. He deserves much more respect for his views than other officers on the boards like southland22/det.brees, LOONEY, and mikeran.

Third, not every shooting is the same. Not every event where a cop shoots someone is the same. There are times where it's justified (and SWJJ has even acknowledged the same) and there are times when it's not and there are times when there's a huge gray area. Many times, it's that last one. And, imo, that calls for room for discussion and back and forth. We have people - on BOTH sides of the debate - who will advocate for wanting to know more information. Well, how do we consolidate that information in a single thread? With the changing dynamics brought about through the process (from the event to the outcome for the cops/civilians to the investigation to the prosecution to the etc....) - it would become a mess to keep track of.

I don't see how people can say we need to hear more information but then cram all of that information, for all of the cases, into a single thread. That doesn't seem like a more effective solution.

Fourth, I don't see anyone saying to Big L or LOONEY or other officers that we should consolidate all of the threads where officers have been harmed. I mean, you have the opportunity to do just that right now with a post a half-scroll away on the EE's first page.

But I don't think you would do it. And I think you're right not to do it. Just like I think the senseless and tragic deaths of officers merit attention of its own, so do many of the cases of police abuse.

Fifth, by what criteria would you say events belong in this single, monolithic thread? Is it just any time that the police shoot someone or abuse their authority in a violent/dangerous manner?

If so, what do you do with this story, from what just happened in NYC?

Police kill bystander when New York undercover gun buy goes bad

A civilian was killed. An innocent bystander. Would this belong in the anthological thread you're proposing?

Or does the death of a 61-year old bystander, named Felix Kumi, merit a thread of its own?

Again, that seems messier.

Finally, I get where some of the fatigue is coming from but if you/others spend a bit of time thinking on it, I think you'd find more willingness to discuss these issues by SWJJ than others who pop in and out of the threads and offer very little. So if you want to call attention to posts/posters where moderation or intervention might be needed, I think the time is better spent elsewhere.

Ultimately, (and maybe this is more properly "Finally,") every story is going to end up condemning the cops, and it shouldn't. Because cops aren't always wrong. And I think that reason - and I suspect you'd agree - is all the more reason to keep such threads discreet from one another.

 

[Krodwhodat]

San Antonio Police shoot and kill man armed with a knife with arms up in the air

I'm just curious. I've seen this sentiment before and it strikes me as unfair and backhanded for many of the posts. For a few reasons.

First, other posters have started threads about police abuse. Some of the threads end up going on for several pages, including some with really constructive content from many posters. You use the word "he" and I can only assume the singular pronoun means SWJJ. To say that is, I think, to diminish the other contributions/interests of other posters. The way it's phrased, it doesn't seem like the motive behind your suggestion is convenience or expediency. It seems a bit more personally directed (and not really fair) than that.

Secondly, while SWJJ certainly posts more than others and will, from time to time, weigh on without really knowing all of the details, I do think there's a sincere attempt to have a discussion and I think his motives go beyond merely anti-police or police hate. Anyone saying that isn't really reading, imo. That would be akin to someone saying that Big L only praises/defends police. I don't think that would be fair to Big L. He deserves much more respect for his views than other officers on the boards like southland22/det.brees, LOONEY, and mikeran.

Third, not every shooting is the same. Not every event where a cop shoots someone is the same. There are times where it's justified (and SWJJ has even acknowledged the same) and there are times when it's not and there are times when there's a huge gray area. Many times, it's that last one. And, imo, that calls for room for discussion and back and forth. We have people - on BOTH sides of the debate - who will advocate for wanting to know more information. Well, how do we consolidate that information in a single thread? With the changing dynamics brought about through the process (from the event to the outcome for the cops/civilians to the investigation to the prosecution to the etc....) - it would become a mess to keep track of.

I don't see how people can say we need to hear more information but then cram all of that information, for all of the cases, into a single thread. That doesn't seem like a more effective solution.

Fourth, I don't see anyone saying to Big L or LOONEY or other officers that we should consolidate all of the threads where officers have been harmed. I mean, you have the opportunity to do just that right now with a post a half-scroll away on the EE's first page.

But I don't think you would do it. And I think you're right not to do it. Just like I think the senseless and tragic deaths of officers merit attention of its own, so do many of the cases of police abuse.

Fifth, by what criteria would you say events belong in this single, monolithic thread? Is it just any time that the police shoot someone or abuse their authority in a violent/dangerous manner?

If so, what do you do with this story, from what just happened in NYC?

Police kill bystander when New York undercover gun buy goes bad

A civilian was killed. An innocent bystander. Would this belong in the anthological thread you're proposing?

Or does the death of a 61-year old bystander, named Felix Kumi, merit a thread of its own?

Again, that seems messier.

Finally, I get where some of the fatigue is coming from but if you/others spend a bit of time thinking on it, I think you'd find more willingness to discuss these issues by SWJJ than others who pop in and out of the threads and offer very little. So if you want to call attention to posts/posters where moderation or intervention might be needed, I think the time is better spent elsewhere.

Ultimately, (and maybe this is more properly "Finally,") every story is going to end up condemning the cops, and it shouldn't. Because cops aren't always wrong. And I think that reason - and I suspect you'd agree - is all the more reason to keep such threads discreet from one another.

I'll spend more detail later when I have more time. But,
First, I disagree, he is doing this for his dislike of police it's obvious to me and many others on here. He is about quantity not quality of thread. He will add a new thread while another is going. Continuing to make these threads is not constructive to finding a solution. One thread discussing the problem is all that is needed. You can cover black, white and gray area in there. If his true intent was to discuss the problem then it doesn't take 100 threads. If there is just one thread about police killing a civilian right or wrong you can cover every scenario. If he admittedly comes in with these threads not having all the details, which you yourself said, then he is doing himself and everyone else a dis justice. We have one marijuana thread, one wrestling thread one game day thread one training camp thread etc. each one of those can arguably have multiple threads for many reasons.



Edit: I also am all for one Jimmy Graham thread and one JR thread!!! Or even one former saints players thread!!!!!!

 

[Madhattr]

I for one am tired of seeing these threads and ask that the devs move them to the political board where it seems they would be better fit the discussion.

 

[UpHere]

On the flip side, I can scroll the 1st page of the EE and see approx 15 threads I will never open. Some have little to no replies - do they fit the discussion?

 

[Saint_Ward]

Mods can you combine all of these types of threads and the OP can just add to the thread every time he finds a new shooting?

No.


Each situation/story has its own merits worth discussing. Many of these examples show clear lawful shoots, clear unlawful shoots and many gray zone shoots. It's the subtle differences between scenarios that are useful to discuss and educate.

Poorly crafted threads will die on their own, as will those that don't generate controversy. The good ones invite discussion. You are always free to choose with topics you partake in.

 

[Krodwhodat]

No.





Each situation/story has its own merits worth discussing. Many of these examples show clear lawful shoots, clear unlawful shoots and many gray zone shoots. It's the subtle differences between scenarios that are useful to discuss and educate.



Poorly crafted threads will die on their own, as will those that don't generate controversy. The good ones invite discussion. You are always free to choose with topics you partake in.

Then I guess this one will die on its own.....