Pope is accused of heresy (1 Viewer)

[SystemShock]

No pope ever said evolution was wrong. No pope ever said all gays were going to hell or that all gay people were forgiven, either. Your understanding of the doctrine of papal infallibility is lacking.

You shouldn't make blanket statements like those. There have been lots of popes, and the Catholic church has a history of inquisitions and book bans.

For example, Pope Gregory IX lead the Roman Inquisition, which investigated and prosecuted crimes against the church, including sodomy, because, as the alleged words of the Pope stated, homosexuals are "abominable persons despised by the world... more unclean than animals". It is safe to say, the "going to hell" part is very much implicit in that statement.

And while modern era popes have chosen their words very carefully, they have never taken the time to correct the archbishops, cardinals, et al when the latter have declared homosexuality an abomination, and how homosexuals are heading to hell.

 

[livefromDC]

Too accepting of who? People? Lost souls? Those looking for spitual guidance? Thought that was the point.

I was highlighting what the article pinpoints as the issue the dissenters have with the Pope.

The letter, backed by a Change.org petition, alleged the Pope had “denied truths of the faith” and had not been outspoken enough on key aspects of dogma such as abortion and homosexuality and seems too accepting of other faiths. He was even accused of once using a satanic symbol.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

And while modern era popes have chosen their very words carefully, they have never taken the time to correct the archbishops, cardinals, et al when the latter have declared homosexuality an abomination, and how homosexuals are heading to hell.

Probably because, with perhaps the exception of Francis, they believe in the same thought.

 

[mt15]

Steve Bannon, of all people, is championing this cause. I saw an article a few weeks ago. He has moved to Italy and has sworn to get rid of the current pope, IIRC.

I’ll look for the article.

I can’t find the article I remember but here’s one:

Bannon joins forces with ultra-conservatives to target Pope Francis

The pontiff has expressed support for migrants and the poor, while warning against nationalism and unfettered capitalism.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[RazorOye]

Steve Bannon, of all people, is championing this cause.

this would not surprise me. Bannon has found far right political allies in Italy

 

[saintmdterps]

Which pope committed heresy? The one who said the crucifixion was the fault of all Jews or the one who said it wasn't? The one who said evolution was wrong or the one who said it was right? The one who said gays were going to hell or the one who said they were forgiven (and does that apply to molesterers)? I forget which popes were infallible.

This is the same church that excommunicated Thomas Aquinas prior to canonizing him. It seems little has changed in 800 or so years.

 

[Brennan77]

It was 19 people.

Can find a group of 19 idiots on any subject.

Respectfully, this is lazy. They are scholars and leaders in their field, including priests. Also, there's now 81 that have signed on. Josef Seifert, considered by many to be the best Catholic philosopher alive has expressed his support. You might disagree with the letter. But dismissing them as idiots? No way.

that's a significant hindrance.

It's a letter addressed to the bishops and cardinals.

To understand what's going on we need to take this letter in context. It didn't appear from out of no where. It's a move that was made only after several other efforts to garner clarification have failed. While the letter does a decent job of outlining some of the major problems of ambiguity and/or false teaching of this pope, I do find the effort dangerous and deficient. I don't think it's wise to label the pope as canonically a heretic even if he has allowed his writings and words to be taken in heretical ways. But it does serve a legitimate purpose in my opinion.

To quote Ed Feser ...“The letter, however problematic, is a response to statements and actions of the pope that are also seriously problematic. And if its rashness reflects a kind of exasperation on the part of the signatories, it cannot reasonably be denied that the pope can indeed be exasperating.”

And lest we think it's just this letter that has been submitted for answering, we might recall that a formal dubia was submitted to the pope (by four cardinals) requesting clarification on his teachings in amoris laetitia. It is unthinkable that the questions have gone unanswered. This simply does not happen. And the dubia were in response to private requests for clarification that were also ignored.

There's also several open letters from bishops and cardinals calling for clarification and direction. Most recently, Bishop Athanasius Schneider requested Francis clarify his statements made in the Abu Dhabi text, specifically the assertion that God willed a plurality of religions, which is on its face heresy. He has followed up his personal visit with the pope with a declaration that the text demands a public correction or clarification.

I frankly wish they'd put more effort in stopping the continual burden of the sex abuse scandal than go after a man whose message has been one of acceptance. That's what all faiths truly need right now.

I find this interesting. One of the biggest criticisms of this pope is that he surrounds himself with people who are implicated in sexual and financial scandal, specifically as it pertains to abuse and cover up.

 

[SystemShock]

One of the biggest criticisms of this pope is that he surrounds himself with people who are implicated in sexual and financial scandal, specifically as it pertains to abuse and cover up.

Has it not been the case, throughout history, that the Catholic church and its high priests - and even their low priests - have surrounded themselves in scandal and abuse? From blessing tyrants, to commanding armies, and committing abuses themselves, being torture, murder, rape?

 

[Brennan77]

Has it not been the case, throughout history, that the Catholic church and its high priests - and even their low priests - have surrounded themselves in scandal and abuse? From blessing tyrants, to commanding armies, and committing abuses themselves, being torture, murder, rape?

Catholics have been trying to destroy the Church from within for 2000 years and there's no doubt. We're all sinners, some worse than others. We've had some saintly popes and we've had some terrible criminals. But I really don't think this particular thread that addresses a specific subject is the place for your overarching crusade against religion. Are you making a particular point as it pertains to Pope Francis and the sex abuse crisis or to accusations of heresy?

 

[SystemShock]

Catholics have been trying to destroy the Church from within for 2000 years and there's no doubt. We're all sinners, some worse than others. We've had some saintly popes and we've had some terrible criminals. But I really don't think this particular thread that addresses a specific subject is the place for your overarching crusade against religion. Are you making a particular point as it pertains to Pope Francis and the sex abuse crisis or to accusations of heresy?

My point is, he isn't any better or any worse than any of the popes that have come before him, and I find it silly to single him out.

 

[St.Fury]

My point is, he isn't any better or any worse than any of the popes that have come before him, and I find it silly to single him out.

With all due respect, he is the CURRENT pope. In that sense, it’s perfectly fine to single him out if you don’t feel he is going astray. Some of these Catholics clearly do.

For the record, I’m not catholic. I don’t know all the ins-and-outs of Catholicism. I can’t really say which party is being more true to their religion.

 

[Brennan77]

My point is, he isn't any better or any worse than any of the popes that have come before him, and I find it silly to single him out.

This seems to be an absurd statement, even if you think all religion is equally incorrect and morally wrong. But I'll repeat that this is not really the place for that discussion. This thread is discussing a particular pope and accusations that have been levied against him. If that is meaningless to you perhaps you'll be better off participating in another thread.

 

[SigFreudianSlip]

Would that be heresy in itself?
My apologies if an ignorant question. Although my wife was raised Catholic she denounced Catholicism as she grew up. And I was raised southern Baptist. Which I am also not affiliated with anymore.

We believe in God, just not in organized religion.

And as I read Brennan’s post, I don’t mean to digress or thread-jack. As stated I don’t know Catholicism.

 

[SigFreudianSlip]

this would not surprise me. Bannon has found far right political allies in Italy

Hi Oye, hope you and yours are well.
Always far right and far left. I know it’s a pipe dream but I hope we can all work together someday. Naive in my dream and good in theory I know, since it seems unable to be put into practice.

 

[SystemShock]

With all due respect,

We know what that means.

he is the CURRENT pope. In that sense, it’s perfectly fine to single him out if you don’t feel he is going astray.

He is not the only one CURRENTLY surrounding himself in sexual and financial scandals... heck, CURRENTLY there are many within the Catholic church who are involved in sexual and financial scandals. Why is no one accusing them of heresy?