Put affirmative action to a vote? 5 states may put it on the ballot (2 Viewers)

[TulsaSaint]

So here's a question. Would people here have a problem with affirmative action if it were based on class or income? After all, in general, poorer people of any color usually attend inferior schools and often grow up in an atmosphere where the adults around them are not themselves educated or highly successful. Thus, the poor have a disadvantage built in from the beginning. So, in college admissions for example, would it make sense to take a person's income into account when making admissions decisions, i.e., to consider that their lower test scores could have to do with their economically disadvantaged situation?

Granted, that doesn't say anything about a situation like Dad's, or about most others related to promotion in the upper reaches of a company or organization where both candidates are already in a pretty good economic position and where their class background is not very relevant. But what do people think of class-based affirmative action in things like college admissions?

 

[LSSpam]

So here's a question. Would people here have a problem with affirmative action if it were based on class or income? After all, in general, poorer people of any color usually attend inferior schools and often grow up in an atmosphere where the adults around them are not themselves educated or highly successful. Thus, the poor have a disadvantage built in from the beginning. So, in college admissions for example, would it make sense to take a person's income into account when making admissions decisions, i.e., to consider that their lower test scores could have to do with their economically disadvantaged situation?

It's still the same problem. You're potentially passing on more qualified people to bring in someone who, admittedly because of their situation, may not have the necessary tools to do the job.

The solution isn't a fix at the top end of the process, when they're adults looking for a job, but at the bottom end when they're growing up in said high crime areas with crumbling infrastructure and terrible school districts.

That needs to be addressed, anything else is just window dressing.


But, just to clarify, I'm referring to, strictly, workplace affirmative action. I'm a fan of University/College "quotas", but for a different reason. Namely that I consider "diversity" to be an important element to the college experience. It's healthy for the University as a whole and the educational experience to not be monolithic demographically.

 

[JimEverett]

Affirmative action as a quota system is already illegal under federal law for companies employing 15 or more people.
In fact - any adverse action with race as a motivating factor is illegal for those employers.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Affirmative action as a quota system is already illegal under federal law for companies employing 15 or more people.
In fact - any adverse action with race as a motivating factor is illegal for those employers.

I've been saying this on the board for years. I even went as far as to post case law where whites have sued and won millions due to raced based hiring practices and links to the actual government regulations regarding it. Outside of the military it's illegal, plain and simple.

 

[LSSpam]

I've been saying this on the board for years. I even went as far as to post case law where whites have sued and won millions due to raced based hiring practices and links to the actual government regulations regarding it. Outside of the military it's illegal, plain and simple.

That's not true. Just because it isn't referred to as a hard "quota" anymore doesn't really make it less so.

The regulations at 41 CFR 60-2.12(e), 60-2.30 and 60-2.15, specifically prohibit quota and preferential hiring and promotions under the guise of affirmative action numerical goals. In other words, discrimination in the selection decision is prohibited.

Which is fun to say and probably there to avoid lawsuits. But the message is clear

A contractor in violation of E.O. 11246 may have its contracts canceled, terminated, or suspended in whole or in part, and the contractor may be debarred, i.e., declared ineligible for future government contracts...

The numerical goals are established based on the availability of qualified applicants in the job market or qualified candidates in the employer’s work force.

Many contracts also include specific money for minority employees, meaning businesses have to find said minorities to fill those roles in order to access the full potential of the contract.

Universities too certainly meet "quotas" of sorts.
Grutter v. Bollinger

In the court's ruling, Justice O'Connor's majority opinion held that the United States Constitution "does not prohibit the law school's narrowly tailored use of race in admissions decisions to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body." The Court held that the law school's interest in obtaining a "critical mass" of minority students was indeed a "tailored use."

Which, by the way, I agree with.

You two are oversimplifying things

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Yes, universities still have quota's for acceptance. That's a different equation than hiring however due to legacy points.

As someone who has been a hiring manager for companies doing government contracts for many years I've had to do numerous Affirmative Action statements for RFP responses. I can assure you all it requires is a non discrimination statement as your affirmative action plan.

Now, DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise) contracts are a different story. These are the types of contracts your mention that require certain amounts of minority participation in the contract. That however is not Affirmative Action and really is a completely different subject.

For the record I'm against both (Affirmative Action and DBE) in regards to hiring and handing out contracts but as long as there are legacy points I think it's needed in college admissions. However, I find most people really have no idea what it is. I know I didn't before I actually started bidding on and doing government contracts (which is all Affirmative Action applies to).

It's really just become a way for people to scream "they stole our jerb's" and claim any black person promoted over them or their friends really was just because they were black and not because they were better. You see this in the people who have seen it happen "dozens of times" which is nearly impossible. I've gone my entire professional career without seeing one AA hire. I have however had to bring a company on board once for DBE qualification.

 

[V Chip]

I wonder how many of the apocryphal stories are true. I mean, I have heard them from people I know and trust, but in my dealings and for most of the businesses I know of, hiring has a lot more to do with the salary you want to get as opposed to your race, gender, AA, quotas, age, and in some cases your ability to perform the job.

I know personally a couple times when friends of coworkers applying for jobs were told they weren't hired for a BS reason (one was told "they wanted to hire a woman programmer", the other was told "it was based on connections") when in fact in both cases it was simply because the newly hired person was willing to accept significantly less salary.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I wonder how many of the apocryphal stories are true. I mean, I have heard them from people I know and trust, but in my dealings and for most of the businesses I know of, hiring has a lot more to do with the salary you want to get as opposed to your race, gender, AA, quotas, age, and in some cases your ability to perform the job.

I know personally a couple times when friends of coworkers applying for jobs were told they weren't hired for a BS reason (one was told "they wanted to hire a woman programmer", the other was told "it was based on connections") when in fact in both cases it was simply because the newly hired person was willing to accept significantly less salary.

As someone who has been hiring programmers for over a decade I've been told more than once to "try and find a woman to add some diversity". It's never been a case where we had to for legal reasons but rather internal politics. A number of IT departments I've been a part of have taken heat from the other departments for not having female staff. However, I've never been given a mandate I had to hire one just told I should try and find one.

It's actually amazingly difficult to find female programmers especially experienced ones.

 

[varanook]

Yes, universities still have quota's for acceptance. That's a different equation than hiring however due to legacy points.

As someone who has been a hiring manager for companies doing government contracts for many years I've had to do numerous Affirmative Action statements for RFP responses. I can assure you all it requires is a non discrimination statement as your affirmative action plan.

Now, DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise) contracts are a different story. These are the types of contracts your mention that require certain amounts of minority participation in the contract. That however is not Affirmative Action and really is a completely different subject.

For the record I'm against both (Affirmative Action and DBE) in regards to hiring and handing out contracts but as long as there are legacy points I think it's needed in college admissions. However, I find most people really have no idea what it is. I know I didn't before I actually started bidding on and doing government contracts (which is all Affirmative Action applies to).

It's really just become a way for people to scream "they stole our jerb's" and claim any black person promoted over them or their friends really was just because they were black and not because they were better. You see this in the people who have seen it happen "dozens of times" which is nearly impossible. I've gone my entire professional career without seeing one AA hire. I have however had to bring a company on board once for DBE qualification.

Nonsense. Whoever said if you are a minority and woman a few posts up is dead right.

I have seen women hired and/or make it through the first couple phases of the interview process who have never set foot in a plant, never been to any operations school of any kind or have even an ounce of idea of what a plant operators job entails.
It is because they are women. That is the only reason imo. I am not saying the one's I have seen are not intelligent or can't perform the necessary job functions just saying I have seen others more qualified being passed over.
It's usually stated that the plants would rather train you from scratch than bring in someone with "bad habits" but in the same hiring pools I have seen people with years of exp. hired at the same time as that ONE person with none. That is the way, they get around it.

Do some businesses try to get around hiring minorities. Probably. I just don't know how to solve that.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Nonsense. Whoever said if you are a minority and woman a few posts up is dead right.

I have seen women hired and/or make it through the first couple phases of the interview process who have never set foot in a plant, never been to any operations school of any kind or have even an ounce of idea of what a plant operators job entails.
It is because they are women. That is the only reason imo. I am not saying the one's I have seen are not intelligent or can't perform the necessary job functions just saying I have seen others more qualified being passed over.
It's usually stated that the plants would rather train you from scratch than bring in someone with "bad habits" but in the same hiring pools I have seen people with years of exp. hired at the same time as that ONE person with none. That is the way, they get around it.

Do some businesses try to get around hiring minorities. Probably. I just don't know how to solve that.

There's a difference between choosing to and being forced to. Making a choice that you want to hire a woman has nothing to do with Affirmative Action. If better qualified men are passed over they should sue, they are the ones who have the actual legal protection, not the company discriminating against them.

 

[JimEverett]

Nonsense. Whoever said if you are a minority and woman a few posts up is dead right.

I have seen women hired and/or make it through the first couple phases of the interview process who have never set foot in a plant, never been to any operations school of any kind or have even an ounce of idea of what a plant operators job entails.
It is because they are women. That is the only reason imo. I am not saying the one's I have seen are not intelligent or can't perform the necessary job functions just saying I have seen others more qualified being passed over.
It's usually stated that the plants would rather train you from scratch than bring in someone with "bad habits" but in the same hiring pools I have seen people with years of exp. hired at the same time as that ONE person with none. That is the way, they get around it.

Do some businesses try to get around hiring minorities. Probably. I just don't know how to solve that.

If unqualified women are getting jobs over qualified men then the men should sue because that employment practice is illegal. It has nothing to do with affirmative action. I am suing Michael Chertoff right now for that reason.

 

[varanook]

If unqualified women are getting jobs over qualified men then the men should sue because that employment practice is illegal. It has nothing to do with affirmative action. I am suing Michael Chertoff right now for that reason.

Do you little good.

They would just say they are hiring people they prefer to train. That is how I understand it at least.

 

[LSSpam]

By the way, since we're sharing anecdotes, I figured i'd throw one of mine in the ring.

"Affirmative action/quotas" work both ways, at least at the University level.

Jackson State University is a historically black college with over 80% of its student population being black. I was offered a full-paid minority scholarship to go there because I was white.

Also a 2005 Princton study found that Whites aren't the ones selected against most for racial quotas in Universities. In otherwords, he found that the demographic that was selected against the most, proportionally, were actually Asians, not white people. Asians, on average, had to perform higher then any other race in order to get into the study's selection of top private universities.

 

[V Chip]

As someone who has been hiring programmers for over a decade I've been told more than once to "try and find a woman to add some diversity". It's never been a case where we had to for legal reasons but rather internal politics. A number of IT departments I've been a part of have taken heat from the other departments for not having female staff. However, I've never been given a mandate I had to hire one just told I should try and find one.

It's actually amazingly difficult to find female programmers especially experienced ones.

Oh I know, I'm a programmer myself and I married one of the few female programmers out there.

I think diversity is good -- if it were me hiring I would try and find a diverse group of people. But in the end most businesses aren't gonna hire the best-qualified person if that person's salary demands are more than what the company wants to pay. I worked for years at a company in New Orleans who routinely let great candidates get away to hire someone who was $10-$15K lower in salary, only to find out the person they hired couldn't program the examples in a "For Dummies" book.

 

[JimEverett]

Do you little good.

They would just say they are hiring people they prefer to train. That is how I understand it at least.

Its actually a promotion case rather than a hiring case. But there are plenty of hiring cases that men have won with similar circumstances. ITs against the law plain and simple.