Question about pushing forward (1 Viewer)

Quick question. I recall you posting sources for the topic of reparations. Can you list that again here? I've stated before that I'm open to the idea and would like to read up on actual proposals that have been made. I know the bulk of the topic is ultimately political, but it's foundational enough to at least introduce it here. As with most massive government programs, the devil will be in the details.

I don't know how close or how far we are and whether there's political will in Congress to introduce legislation on it, but I support some sort of financial payments. I have no idea what the criteria would be are in terms of who would qualify and how much, so I'd like to read up and see what ideas are out there.

Sandy Darity, Jr - an economist at Duke - is probably who you want to start with. He is the foremost expert on the topic and started #ADOS (which you can also use to research beyond).

This is one place to start:


I also like the Coates Atlantic article - amazingly written and crafted. Stylistically impressive, even more than the content:


Finally, I there was talk about 'reparations' in the presentation that I attended yesterday and I'll just excerpt that part, because different panelists had different ideas about it:

  • Reparations in society - discussions around education, material support. Attacking homelessness and houselessness and healthcare. These are bare expectations.
  • Reparations re: defunding in law enforcement - look at the funding agencies to transform punishment to rehabilitation. Moving away from punishment and torture designs to things that can work through knowledge and building up when possible
  • research partnerships established with police themselves - publicly funded support needs more access to publicly funded services, like education and the police. But the police are the most resistant to this
    • one example that was specifically cited was the disinclination and refusal to participate in studies to examine the efficacy of body camera usage in policing
  • The debates over Confederate Monuments - let's talk about not just taking down, but what merits going up. Why can't abolitionists be memorialized? This could be reparations. Because it's not just a discussion about what comes down but also what goes up. That's inspiring.
  • A police officer responsible for the torturing of over 100 Black men becoming part of the Chicago school curriculum, so that AP US History includes things like that and lynching - that history about these things exist. Lynchings as terrorism. The frame of "white criminality" is part of curriculum reparations
 
The next thing is that with politics, you fight for income equality, healthcare for all, getting money out of politics, jobs with benefits -- i.e. a level economic playing field. Income inequality (and power imbalance) is the biggest racist lever that gets pulled. Fight that, and we'll have a more just society in ethnic, gender, and racial equality.

This is a truly historic time. Embrace it.

I'm scarfing down lunch between calls so I probably won't articulate this as well as I should but I'll give it a shot. This may get too political for the mods, if so feel free to delete.

What you said up there is something where my perception has shifted. In my 20s and early 30s I fancied myself a bit of a libertarian (probably little l, not big L) and a "fiscal conservative/social liberal". Over time I've come to the realization that "fiscally conservative socially liberal" can often be an oxymoron and at times it's a bit intellectually immature.

What creates the uneven playing field are the built-in advantages. I went to good schools. I ate good food. I had good healthcare. My parents had access to educational toys and tools as I got older. So did my parents. And their parents, going all the way back.

If we're going to create a level playing field, we have to change that. That means healthcare. That means better education. That means access to a living wage. That means all of the things that a "fiscal conservative" would traditionally be against. But if you're truly "socially liberal", you've got to understand that without access to those things, minorities will never have the same opportunity that my kids will. Politically I'm still sort feeling my way through exact policies (I'm still unsure about universal healthcare, for example). But I do recognize that until those things are accessible to all, there isn't true equality of opportunity.

There are a lot of smart white people who I think truly in their hearts want equality for all. But I think there's a lot of people (myself to some extent) that naively believe that you can be "fiscally conservative and socially liberal". We're going to have to spend money on things if we really want to create equal footholds for all.

Anyway, a bit of an unfinished thought, I'll prob circle back later after others have added more to the discussion.
 
I'm scarfing down lunch between calls so I probably won't articulate this as well as I should but I'll give it a shot. This may get too political for the mods, if so feel free to delete.

What you said up there is something where my perception has shifted. In my 20s and early 30s I fancied myself a bit of a libertarian (probably little l, not big L) and a "fiscal conservative/social liberal". Over time I've come to the realization that "fiscally conservative socially liberal" can often be an oxymoron and at times it's a bit intellectually immature.

What creates the uneven playing field are the built-in advantages. I went to good schools. I ate good food. I had good healthcare. My parents had access to educational toys and tools as I got older. So did my parents. And their parents, going all the way back.

If we're going to create a level playing field, we have to change that. That means healthcare. That means better education. That means access to a living wage. That means all of the things that a "fiscal conservative" would traditionally be against. But if you're truly "socially liberal", you've got to understand that without access to those things, minorities will never have the same opportunity that my kids will. Politically I'm still sort feeling my way through exact policies (I'm still unsure about universal healthcare, for example). But I do recognize that until those things are accessible to all, there isn't true equality of opportunity.

There are a lot of smart white people who I think truly in their hearts want equality for all. But I think there's a lot of people (myself to some extent) that naively believe that you can be "fiscally conservative and socially liberal". We're going to have to spend money on things if we really want to create equal footholds for all.

Anyway, a bit of an unfinished thought, I'll prob circle back later after others have added more to the discussion.

My idea of fiscal conservatism doesn't necessarily mean an absence of spending. But rather, spending money wisely on meaningful things. I consider social equality to be a meaningful thing to spend money on. It's money well-spent. I'm a firm believer in self-determination, but I'm also a believer in a level playing field. Self-determination in a broader context isn't practically possible without a level playing field. Certainly we don't all make good decisions, and we ultimately are responsible for our own decisions. But as it sits currently, blacks have never been compensated for what was promised them after the Civil War, and that injustice has to be remedied before rull reconciliation can occur. Those empty promises need to be fulfilled.

I'm still reading up on how to do that, but my mind and heart is open.
 
My idea of fiscal conservatism doesn't necessarily mean an absence of spending. But rather, spending money wisely on meaningful things. I consider social equality to be a meaningful thing to spend money on. It's money well-spent. I'm a firm believer in self-determination, but I'm also a believer in a level playing field. Self-determination in a broader context isn't practically possible without a level playing field. Certainly we don't all make good decisions, and we ultimately are responsible for our own decisions. But as it sits currently, blacks have never been compensated for what was promised them after the Civil War, and that injustice has to be remedied before rull reconciliation can occur. Those empty promises need to be fulfilled.

I'm still reading up on how to do that, but my mind and heart is open.
40 acres and a mule would be about 2.6 trillion today

They probably should have paid it out back then
 
40 acres and a mule would be about 2.6 trillion today

They probably should have paid it out back then

Absolutely. I know Congress and a certain segment of our population would just flip out if we did that, but I'd be perfectly OK with 2.6 trillion going to the descendants of those who were supposed to receive that land and mule. I actually think that's a good use of resources.
 
Not offering solutions here, but trying to define the problems.

The most basic element in pursuing happiness is healthcare. The paradigm of trying healthcare to employment seems ridiculous. And I speak as someone who has "cadillac" health insurance.

Educational opportunities must be improved. I've mentioned this before: when whites and blacks become real colleagues, racial differences become insignificant. This is an unbelievably complex problem, wrapped up in redlining and other blatantly racist practices. There is something fundamentally wrong with the way we fund schools. Advancement is usually fueled by education.

I have no idea how to change the minds of real racists. The fact that the protests were led by young people gives me some hope.

Those are two paradigm shifts I can think of, and there must be many others. People have to be willing to accept input that they are not used to, and that is very difficult for many.
 
Not offering solutions here, but trying to define the problems.

The most basic element in pursuing happiness is healthcare. The paradigm of trying healthcare to employment seems ridiculous. And I speak as someone who has "cadillac" health insurance.

Educational opportunities must be improved. I've mentioned this before: when whites and blacks become real colleagues, racial differences become insignificant. This is an unbelievably complex problem, wrapped up in redlining and other blatantly racist practices. There is something fundamentally wrong with the way we fund schools. Advancement is usually fueled by education.

I have no idea how to change the minds of real racists. The fact that the protests were led by young people gives me some hope.

Those are two paradigm shifts I can think of, and there must be many others. People have to be willing to accept input that they are not used to, and that is very difficult for many.

The only way is to start young. A hard-core older racist is impossible to have a rational discussion with. I know because I've tried. And I tried up until he passed away. He took his racist worldview with him to the grave. Unfortunately some will be like that. Frustrating.
 
I have no idea how to change the minds of real racists. The fact that the protests were led by young people gives me some hope.

Work on the ones who have some hope.

Shame and minimize the opinions of the ones who don't until they're reduced to far-flung and shadowy corners of the world and the internet. There will always be some full-blown racists. The key is to stigmatize them to the point where the children of civilized society don't ever see their nonsense.

Right now we're seeing what happens when the cockroaches are allowed out from the basement, and it ain't pretty. We won't fix 100% of racism, but we can beat what's left of them back into to the upside-down where they belong so that their hate isn't allowed to spread or see the light of day.
 
Work on the ones who have some hope.

Shame and minimize the opinions of the ones who don't until they're reduced to far-flung and shadowy corners of the world and the internet. There will always be some full-blown racists. The key is to stigmatize them to the point where the children of civilized society don't ever see their nonsense.

Right now we're seeing what happens when the cockroaches are allowed out from the basement, and it ain't pretty. We won't fix 100% of racism, but we can beat what's left of them back into to the upside-down where they belong so that their hate isn't allowed to spread or see the light of day.

Indeed, I'm a tolerant guy. But even that has it's limits. I don't tolerate racists. They can stay in their corner for all I care. I'd rather they change, but for some, rather unlikely.
 
For anyone who either doesn't want to buy the book "The Color of Law", or don't have time to read it, here is the author speaking on it.

You can jump to the 7:10 mark when he starts to break it down and also it's impacts felt today. You simply cannot hear this and then say no to reparations. It should make anyone angry to even know this happened not very long ago and nothing has ever really been done about it. You should at the very least look at heavily redlined places like Chicago differently.

This is the reconciliation that needs to happen more than anything. This is the way to move forward.

 
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We're going to have to spend money on things if we really want to create equal footholds for all.

That's exactly right. And the resistance to doing that is the real racist 'monument' that has to be torn down.

Since 1980, when Republicans have been in charge, "fiscal conservatives" jacked up defense spending, did the Iraq War (an unintentional gift to Iran) that wasted tons of military and innocent lives and billions of dollars, made it so the wealthy and corporations did not pay taxes, exploded the deficit and debt, raised the cost of living, and exploded poverty by cutting welfare and freezing the paltry minimum wage while the cost of living has gone up. Today, they rip up what's left of the safety net. And in 1990 when Limbaugh got started and 1996 when Fox News came on, the wealthy used those huge platforms to demonize liberals, gerrymander, and build an electoral firewall - totally anti-Democracy. (The left stupidly, has never countered Fox News anywhere close to scale)

When Democrats have been in charge, they have played the victim role, appeasing the wealthy and Wall Street, and abdicating doing big change under the phony cover of serving "austerity." They have played some defense on domestic issues, raised taxes a bit, and made some incremental social changes. They have done war in the background, with drones and continuing to fund dictators in regime change. The Democrats did not have the political will to add a public option in healthcare in Obama's first term, even though he campaigned on it. Now it's 10 years later already.

As I said earlier, we can only directly influence people around us. We can vote, and hope that our vote is not changed by someone on an ipad a quarter-mile away. We can donate to causes we support, where organizations and candidates are better positioned to make change.

But macro-level change in defeating racism and discrimination -- and the intentional and grose income inequality --- should only happen in policy-making structures, that frankly are wholly owned and controlled by the wealthy, and now, foreign dictators.

We are not citizens, we are pawns, who are manipulated to be divided and vote out of hate, not out of supporting consensus-based common-sense public policy.

Fortunately, we're at a tipping point. We're either going to get new leadership from the left that has the political will to tear down the criminal grift and wealth-making, power-consolidating racket and the race/gender/ethnic/income -discrimation it crystallizes - or we're going to get the same old weak-left or extremist right leadership - and continue spiraling into fascism and mass-scale herd-thinning.

Have a nice day. Hug/elbow-bump your loved ones and don't take them for granted. We all should stop wasting our life posting on a football message board. hah ha ha. But alas, the online community center is good, especially when physical access to others has been taken away, or can be dangerous.

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(If the mods want to delete this post, I take zero offense if you do that.)
 
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Lots of really great comments all. Thank you for your thoughts and perspectives. A lot to ponder.

A couple of questions. I don’t really know, and probably will come across more as I begin reading and learning more, but is the proper term Negro an offensive word or how is it viewed in the black community?

Second, I'm a bit embarrassed to say, but my wife, even though she's Asian, is actually quite prejudiced. It actually bothers me, and even bothers my kids. But, I'd like to educate her on the suffering blacks endured during and after slavery. Are there any good documentaries on Netflix or Amazon Prime that I can watch with her?

We recently watched The Wire, and seeing a little bit of how poor blacks live in the inner cities shook her, and she actually started to come around in the sense that she started to feel empathy for those in really difficult day to day living. And it humanized her view enough that it made her genuinely sad.

She literally has no education about slavery and and the true impact it's had on our country. Gone with the Wind doesn't count. Heh. I think if she understood better how our country got here from there, she'd understand why black have been behind the 8 ball from the outset of our country. I think this will give me a chance to work with her in letting go of our prejudices and truly embracing blacks as our brothers and sisters. It's going to be a bit of a paradigm shift for her. She's deaf, so she understands being oppressed and being taken advantage of, and i think if i can illustrate the black experience in a way that makes sense to her, I think she'll embrace it.

One other quick comment, I really do appreciate that we have a forum for this discussion. I wouldn’t call this a safe space, because our old notions should be challenged and hopefully changed such that we give up the fear of losing our identity, and embrace a different reality, the red/blue choice given to Neo. See you on the other side. :9:
May I suggest 13th on Netflix. Also the Innocence Project. While it focuses on people of all skin tones, I think you wife will start to understand how it is for black people. If you have FB send me a friend request (Leon Hardy) and you can access some videos I posted. Here's one (don't know if it will work)
 
Thanks for the suggestions. So something interesting. I explained a bit of the story about the 40 acres and a mule bit that was supposed to be given to families of freed slaves and how the government didn't follow through on it, and her response was, why did the government make a promise then not keep it? I actually didn't know and will learn more about it. She was like, dang, no wonder they're angry. And they should be. She's coming around for sure. She had never heard of the 40 acres and a mule and she's clueless as to what slavery was like here. We both have a lot to learn tbh.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. So something interesting. I explained a bit of the story about the 40 acres and a mule bit that was supposed to be given to families of freed slaves and how the government didn't follow through on it, and her response was, why did the government make a promise then not keep it? I actually didn't know and will learn more about it. She was like, dang, no wonder they're angry. And they should be. She's coming around for sure. She had never heard of the 40 acres and a mule and she's clueless as to what slavery was like here. We both have a lot to learn tbh.
They actually did start giving some of the land
The area was called Shermanville
When Lincoln was assassinated and Johnson took over he was all like **** that noise
And the some of the same soldiers that moved the freed people onto the land hadvto come back and move them off
 


Now, you may say, "FTP, how the fork do I answer that?! How can I answer 'Why was it necessary to have a n***** in the first place?' " Right? I never owned slaves. My father didn't. His father didn't. I don’t hate black people.

Ah! But, you benefit, which by very definition, by laws of nature, mean I am disadvantaged, by an institution, a construct, a society, A COUNRTY, that was built on having a n***** and having him subjugated, oppressing him, diminishing him and making his very being a demonization.

No, you didn't ask for this benefit, you don’t actively seek it nor do you choose to weaponize it. But, YOU RECEIVE IT, nonetheless, and more importantly, not only do I not receive it, I am held back by it, so it us incumbent to educate yourselves and understand, for yourselves, why such a construct, such a society was created in the first place, so then, you can dismantle it and as Baldwin says, "the future of the country will depend on that."

How can you do that? Thankfully, Baldwin helps with that too.


The really terrible thing, old buddy, is that you must accept them, and I mean that very seriously. You must accept them and accept them with love, for these innocent people have no other hope. They are in effect still trapped in a history which they do not understand and until they understand it, they cannot be released from it. They have had to believe for many years, and for innumerable reasons, that black men are inferior to white men.

Many of them indeed know better, but as you will discover, people find it very difficult to act on what they know. To act is to be committed and to be committed is to be in danger. In this case the danger in the minds and hearts of most white Americans is the loss of their identity. Try to imagine how you would feel if you woke up one morning to find the sun shivering and all the stars aflame. You would be frightened because it is out of the order of nature. Any upheaval in the universe is terrifying because it so profoundly attacks one's sense of one's own reality. Well, the black man has functioned in the white man's world as a fixed star, as an immovable pillar, and as he moves out of his place, heaven and earth are shaken to their foundations.

You don't be afraid. I said it was intended that you should perish, in the ghetto, perish by never being allowed to go beyond and behind the white man's definition, by never being allowed to spell your proper name. You have, and many of us have, defeated this intention and by a terrible law, a terrible paradox, those innocents who believed that your imprisonment made them safe are losing their grasp of reality. But these men are your brothers, your lost younger brothers, and if the word "integration" means anything, this is what it means, that we with love shall force our brothers to see themselves as they are, to cease fleeing from reality and begin to change it, for this is your home, my friend. Do not be driven from it. Great men have done great things here and will again and we can make America what America must become.


The bolded, the emphasis, are mine. White America is trapped in a history they don’t understand and you all are imprisoned by it and I along with you. Because my very being stands in contrast to that romanticization. My American experience, my heritage throws cold water on that mythical history and because Americans, White Americans, are so invested in that history, my refute of it, or yet, my clarification of it, MY TRUTH, causes a severe loss of identity. And what do men do when they feel like they are losing themselves? They become scared, become frightened. They fight against reality to maintain the status quo.

But, Dave, my brother, that is when you must fight the hardest! As Yoda said, "you must unlearn what you have learned." You have to be willing! Willing to see another experience. Another perspective. Another heritage. And be willing to honor it, and hold it in esteem, even if it casts those things you hold dear in a bad light. Ida B. Wells said, "The way to right wrongs is to turn the light of truth upon them." When Morpheus offered Neyo that red pill, he wasn't offering him a utopia. Another reality. He was offering THE reality. THE truth. Because he knew, in that truth, no matter how bitter, how unpleasant, how saddening it may be, in that truth only can a man be set free. Truly free. Because to remain blissfully unaware, even in paradise, is to be a slave.

Be willing to wake up from that dream and embrace the truth. Yes, there will be some things that sadden you, will be bitter and most unpleasant. Things that will make your sun shiver and question your legacy, your place, your identity. But, in that education, I guarantee you will find a love. A love that Baldwin says forces you to see yourselves, clearly and truthfully, and that love moves you to, not run from reality, but to embrace it and behoove you to change it.

Because when you educate yourself on the Negroes journey in this country, his American story, how can you not want to change this society for him? When you see the love that he has for you and this country, how can you not want equality for him? You see, Drew Brees' two white grandfathers fought for this country and that drives his love of country, his love if the flag, his veneration for the anthem. But, my two black grandfathers fought for this country too. Men of color have fought in every conflict in yhis country's history. Can you imagine the depth of love it takes, the sense of patriotism one must have, how strong their belief in ideals and principles must be to take up arms for a country, put on their uniform, fight under their banner, travel to different countries, fight and kill men to preserve and promote a democracy, a freedom, that you currently don't get, and if you survive that conflict, return home, not a hero, as Drew's grandfathers were, but a n*****, still not afforded the rights that you fought and bled for?

We spend so much time agonizing over these flawed figures in our history and debate about their places in our present when if we simply educate ourselves we would recognize their is a wealth of characters to choose from to honor, who stand without ambiguity, that represent our values of our present. Sure, we laugh when Dave Chappelle tells the joke about Thomas Jefferson writing "All men are created equal", getting hungry, and yells at his slave, "go fix me a sandwich b****!", but do we discern the deeper meaning of that? Jefferson, while penning those words, owned 130 slaves, some if them his blood, his family. And, yet, where is the monument, the statue, the reverence for the Negro slave who hears those words, not read them, not because he doesn't want to read, but, because he has been prevented to or told he will be killed if knows how to, but hears "all men are created equal" and believes in that value so strongly, so passionately, so fervently, that he takes up arms, to fight for a country, to preserve a way of life, THAT HE HIMSELF WILL NOT BE AFFORDED. But, on a hope, a promise, that maybe one day, one day, his children, or their children, might. Because even though he is chattel, a n*****, in his heart he knows he is a man, and if he preserves that ideal, then one day when, IF, White America grants him such status, not him, but his descendants may be able to live free.

We debate the Confederate flags meaning but know nothing of Black Wall Street or Rosewood. We agonize over George Washington and Robert E. Lee but know nothing about Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner. White abolishsonists and white freedom fighters who literally put their lives in jeopardy to fight for freedoms of all men. As I drive through Jefferson Davis parish, turn onto Jeff Davis drive to get to my grandmothers house, a house her and my grandpa built on the pennies and dimes she earned cleaning up and cooking for white folks. See that's why Nikole Hannah-Jones can say, "Black people have seen the worst of America, yet, somehow, we still believe in its best." See, that's why I take that knee baby! Not because I hate this country, hell no, because I love it. Not because I descend from traitors but because my stock is made from the ultimate patriots. As Baldwin said, "you come from sturdy peasant stock, men who picked cotton, dammed rivers, built railroads, and in the teeth of the most terrifying odds, achieved an unassailable and monumental dignity. You come from a long line of great poets, some of the greatest poets since Homer. One of them said, "The very time I thought I was lost, my dungeon shook and my chains fell off." "

It is time Dave. No more excuses. We live in an age where we all carry supercomputers in our pockets that, literally, at the touch of our fingers holds humanities entire existence, digitally waiting to be accessed and researched at our convenience. And, yet, we have the audacity to throw up our hands and say, "I didn’t know." Do we? Or do we choose not to? To know. It is time for White America to educate themselves and free themselves. I promise you that once, collectively, you all free youselves from the burdens of the past, through knowledge, your humanity will compel you to move forward. And be free. And it will be in that freedom that I truly gain mine, and, together, we "make America what America must become", land of the free (for all), home of the brave (us).


You are literally the only poster that I get excited when I see a super long post from. You bring it, every single time.
 

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