Question: Black on Black Crime (1 Viewer)

SystemShock

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I didn't want to post this on the various threads where I have seen it mentioned, because I want to hear some opinions, and if I post it on any of the other threads, it is going to get lost in the back and forth about the flag/Drew/protests/riots/police brutality.

Every time there is a discussion about racial tensions, inevitably someone brings up black on black crime. I have seen a few posts (maybe more than few) and even video, using that phrase and some statistic to either shift blame to blacks/black leaders, as a way to "normalize" or even excuse the police's treatment of black people, to imply that blacks are more violent that whites, etc.

Of course, statistics without context are useless. In this particular case, I am interested in P(B|A), or the conditional probability of B happening given that A happens or happen.

So, the question is simply this:

Given that the black community in general distrusts the police and the judicial system to actually impart justice for them (neither has given them reason to do so IMO), what recourse do they have to settle grievances?

From the perspective of someone on the outside looking in (I am not black, just an observer), this mistrust is so ingrained in black culture because of the history of abuse and harassment they have suffered for centuries, and I believe it to be the root cause of the so called black on black crime.

What say you?
 
I didn't want to post this on the various threads where I have seen it mentioned, because I want to hear some opinions, and if I post it on any of the other threads, it is going to get lost in the back and forth about the flag/Drew/protests/riots/police brutality.

Every time there is a discussion about racial tensions, inevitably someone brings up black on black crime. I have seen a few posts (maybe more than few) and even video, using that phrase and some statistic to either shift blame to blacks/black leaders, as a way to "normalize" or even excuse the police's treatment of black people, to imply that blacks are more violent that whites, etc.

Of course, statistics without context are useless. In this particular case, I am interested in P(B|A), or the conditional probability of B happening given that A happens or happen.

So, the question is simply this:

Given that the black community in general distrusts the police and the judicial system to actually impart justice for them (neither has given them reason to do so IMO), what recourse do they have to settle grievances?

From the perspective of someone on the outside looking in (I am not black, just an observer), this mistrust is so ingrained in black culture because of the history of abuse and harassment they have suffered for centuries, and I believe it to be the root cause of the so called black on black crime.

What say you?

I think it's simpler than that. Most people are murdered by someone of their own race. No one ever talks about white on white crime, but by far most murdered white people are murdered by other white people.

Sure crime rates are higher in the black community. But so is poverty, lack of education, and so on. I think there's a pretty strong correlation between those factors and violent crime.

And for the record, the black community does care and talk about "black on black crime". Just hang out at a black church or go to local community meetings. We see the protests about police brutality, systemic racism, etc b/c that's what they want society as a whole to fix. Issues they believe they need to fix, they talk about locally. At least, that's been my experience.
 
I'm not a black person so I can't even begin to answer your question with authority. If I have listened well enough, I think the black community is saying we need to realize the promise of equality in America.

What I do believe with certainty is that the premise the question is based on is a fallacy. IMHO, it is a distraction which serves to excuse activity based on stereotypes and whataboutism.

That's not to say that increased vigilance by officers isn't needed in instances to protect their own lives. It's only to say that criminal activity shouldn't be acceptable by the state because they are attempting to apprehend criminals. If one truly wants law and order it has to apply to everyone. I won't claim to have enough knowledge to dissect and recommend the proper course of action. There are smarter more well versed people who have studied this and can make better recommendations.

It's pretty obvious however by the charges brought forth from law enforcement professionals after close inspection of the facts that in George Floyd's case that the line was crossed. I won't condemn all officers because every case has individual circumstances. Justice is not as instant as our social media and it's outrage. Admittedly the pace is way too glacial for black citizens. I can only hope that legislators take a hard look at the issue and find good legislative actions which can resolve these ills that have persisted for too long. I don't want citizens or officers suffering needlessly.

I wonder if the low hanging fruit would be to end the war on drugs and treat it as a non-criminal rather than criminal endeavor taking most of the danger out of the mix for both the offenders and the enforcers thus deescalating the threat making our streets safer overall. It seems to me that if there was less reason for armed confrontation, many officers and suspects would be alive today. But I digress...

So yeah, we need to realize the promise of equality in America. Final answer unless I've missed something and need to adjust my stance.
 
I think it's simpler than that. Most people are murdered by someone of their own race. No one ever talks about white on white crime, but by far most murdered white people are murdered by other white people.

Sure crime rates are higher in the black community. But so is poverty, lack of education, and so on. I think there's a pretty strong correlation between those factors and violent crime.

And for the record, the black community does care and talk about "black on black crime". Just hang out at a black church or go to local community meetings. We see the protests about police brutality, systemic racism, etc b/c that's what they want society as a whole to fix. Issues they believe they need to fix, they talk about locally. At least, that's been my experience.
This. The overwhelming majority of crimes committed and intra-racial. I have seen figures attributing 84% of all white people murdered are killed by other white people, but you never hear the media, politicians, etc state concerns about "white on white" crime even though white on white crimes are committed at a rate of 56.4 per 1,000 compared to poor urban Blacks at a rate of 51.3 per 1,000 per FBI Crime Statistics. The CDC reports that the rates of homicides, gun killings, and illicit drug fatalities are highest in counties where nine of ten residents are white and where President Trump won.

The term "black on black" crime is racist and used only to distract from real concerns.
 
I've posted this before. For topics like this, it needs to be a sticky. It's the easiest response.

mail
 
I've posted this before. For topics like this, it needs to be a sticky. It's the easiest response.

mail
Pretty much this in a nutshell.
High poverty, high unemployment, bad education system, will always have higher than not crimes rates. That’s even before you get into the other issues.
Black on Black crime is used as way to stereotype black people and distract from the issues.
Also there is a big difference between state sanctioned violence and intraracial violence. Murder either way is bad. Murder where there is no hope for justice is just awful.
 
This. The overwhelming majority of crimes committed and intra-racial. I have seen figures attributing 84% of all white people murdered are killed by other white people, but you never hear the media, politicians, etc state concerns about "white on white" crime even though white on white crimes are committed at a rate of 56.4 per 1,000 compared to poor urban Blacks at a rate of 51.3 per 1,000 per FBI Crime Statistics. The CDC reports that the rates of homicides, gun killings, and illicit drug fatalities are highest in counties where nine of ten residents are white and where President Trump won.

The term "black on black" crime is racist and used only to distract from real concerns.

Just for the sake pf clarification, are you saying black on black crime is a taboo subject and shouldn't be discussed? I mean, I don't ever use the term, but I've seen discussions where this was pointed out as being a problem in the black community. Or are we using different technology for it?
 
To me, use of the phrase "Black-on-Black crime" is equivalent to saying, "What is the cause of human-on-human crime." It's sort of redundant like "What are we going to do about male-on-female rape?" Crime committed by criminals is... crime.

You can keep track of who's committing crime for statistical purposes, but why single it out (when convenient) as if it's somehow different than all other crime? As if there's something unique about it that requires additional scrutiny.

So when people who oppose the protests say 'Well what about Black-on-Black crime,' they're essentially saying that the Black community must first solve all crimes perpetrated by Black people before we ask police to stop committing crimes against us.

As if THEY'VE managed to solve all crimes perpetrated by white people and we're the only ones who haven't figured it out.

Back to the morbid example of rape, but if Black cops were raping white women at the same rate white cops kill Black people, would they be ok with us suggesting they stop all other white-on-white rapes before they ask the cops to do the same? Would that request make any sense whatsoever?

Like, pause and really think about it. Sit with it for a minute. The sheer level of ignorance it would take for someone to utter those words.

Murder and rape have been around as long we have, but surely it's not too much ask that our police force don't participate.

To your last statement about cause and effect, the root cause of Black-on-Black crime is the same as the root cause for all crime. White criminals and Black criminals have the same motives. And they target the people closest to them because it's convenient. There's nothing special about Black criminals who victimize Black people.

If distrust of police was the root cause - then the only white people who commited crimes would be the ones who distrust cops. You can distrust cops and not be a criminal. You can love cops and still break the law.

If the inquiry was about the frequency of crimes, location, etc. Then the answer will lie in some of the other responses people have provided: poverty, education, etc. But swap out Blacks in those situations and insert any group of people and the results will be the same.
 
I think it's simpler than that. Most people are murdered by someone of their own race. No one ever talks about white on white crime, but by far most murdered white people are murdered by other white people.

Sure crime rates are higher in the black community. But so is poverty, lack of education, and so on. I think there's a pretty strong correlation between those factors and violent crime.

And for the record, the black community does care and talk about "black on black crime". Just hang out at a black church or go to local community meetings. We see the protests about police brutality, systemic racism, etc b/c that's what they want society as a whole to fix. Issues they believe they need to fix, they talk about locally. At least, that's been my experience.
To add to that, most murders are from people they know. Family, friends, neighbors. I don't recall where I saw that, but I'm fairly confident that is true.

What recourse do they (blacks) have? The same system we all have. It's the community and the judicial system that needs to change a bit and reach out better. I don't think a secondary court system or similar is the way to go.
 
I've posted this before. For topics like this, it needs to be a sticky. It's the easiest response.

mail

Looks like the roots have a lot of statism in them. Racism mixed with state power is the overwhelming contributing factor.
Lets keep praying for people to have heart change and keep conversations about race going, but restricting state power seems like the most effective thing we can do now.
 
The fundamental issue is the power imbalance.

When crimes are committed by random Joe Blow, you have options for justice

When crimes are committed by the cops themselves, there is almost never justice
 
Give me 5 years with no racism and focused entirely on improving society and I'll show you less black on black crime.
 
Just for the sake pf clarification, are you saying black on black crime is a taboo subject and shouldn't be discussed? I mean, I don't ever use the term, but I've seen discussions where this was pointed out as being a problem in the black community. Or are we using different technology for it?
I'm saying it's not a thing that exists. There is no phenomenon.
 
Looks like the roots have a lot of statism in them. Racism mixed with state power is the overwhelming contributing factor.
Lets keep praying for people to have heart change and keep conversations about race going, but restricting state power seems like the most effective thing we can do now.

You are using statism in place of white supremacy. That's what has fed all the roots for all these centuries. Just call it what it is. The "state" is just a mere representative of its citizenry.

And that includes nurturing and promoting a culture where African Americans are degrading towards each other as a learned behavior. That began long ago even before the black face "arts" that were so popular. If you call someone stupid their whole life, they get used to it and will gladly respond to it like its their real name. Hence the propensity of the N word still today. Just the classic result of being at the bottom of a caste.

And knowing the history, what do people expect the outcomes to look like?
 

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