Re-examining the Johnathan Sullivan pick (2 Viewers)

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I thought for sure when we moved up, we would be picking Marcus Trufant CB. How has Trufant been so far?
 
rlemieux said:
I think a lot of people are forgettng that Sullivan, out of the DT's available, had the best college production of all of them. He was a very good player at Georgia and guys like Seymore and Richt spoke very highly of him. If you go back and read what all the draft guys said about him it was very positive, most saying he had a non-stop motor and played till the whistle.

Sullivan had (and quite honestly still does) the talent to become a very good DT in the NFL. What he didn't have was the desire. Why? I don't really know but something was strangely wrong from the time he was at Georgia to the time he spent here and with New England. Was it the big contract? Was it the fame? Was it the availabliy of anythnig he wanted? I don't know. However I have a strong idea.
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Good post, and I'd also like to join in the chorus of approval for RockyMtnSaint's post too. Both are very good points, which is why I can't completely agree with either. :D

I think Haslett was at least partially exonerated by Sullivan's inability/unwillingness to get it together in New England either. And by all accounts, for the same reasons. If Belichick & crew couldn't get Sullivan to give a damn, what chance did Haslett and Venturi have?

At the same time, your point about Richt and Seymour speaking highly of the guy, and his outstanding production at Georgia, kind of exonerates the scouting department too (which is why I can't agree with Rocky's indictment of the scouting dept.)

There just weren't any red flags beforehand, I don't think. Sullivan was going to be a first rounder regardless. I seem to remember that the reason we moved up was to get to him before Minny. Now maybe you could say Minny's front office were idiots too. But if not them, it would have been someone else.

I just don't see where picking Sullivan in particular was (overly-)"risky" any more than picking anybody is. Now trading a 1st to move up is risky, but it's risky regardless of who you pick.

So to summarize, my opinion is that it wasn't so much Haslett's fault for not getting him off his butt and away from the buffet table (because Belichick couldn't either) and it's not so much the personnel people's fault for picking Sullivan in the first place (because there really weren't any red flags that I can recall.)

It came down to the old saying: "You never know how a kid is going to respond to all that money." In other words, it was a simple case of really, REALLY bad luck. We picked Dr. Jekyll, gave him truckloads of cash, and it turned him into Mr. Hyde. Would have happened to anyone else who would have taken him, just happened to be us.
 
rlemieux said:
Haslett's coaching staff had a severe inability to develop players. I have made several posts about this in the past, but I will revisit it one more time. It just seemed like no matter who we picked they ended up busting in some way. [...]

I still attest that no matter who we would have drafted they would have not had the sucess we expected because of Haslett and his coaching staff's inability to coach players up.
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So who coached Michael Lewis up? He was so bad as returner that he even lost his job as a returner for Rhein Fire when the Saints sent him to the NFLE. Who coached Jake Delhomme up? Who coached Stinchcomb up? Payton when Stinchcomb couldnt even practice? It was the old staff of course. The same staff that believed in Stinch as a RT when people here said he was a bust or a G at best...

And if the coaches were there problem (because they couldn't teach) and not the players then why didnt anyone else coach them up? Why has nobody been able to coach up Sullivan? Or Watson? Or Kenny Smith? Or Hodge? Isn't it obvious that no coach could coach them up and that not the coaches but the players were the problem?
 
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Chairman_LMAO said:
Good post, and I'd also like to join in the chorus of approval for RockyMtnSaint's post too. Both are very good points, which is why I can't completely agree with either. :D

I think Haslett was at least partially exonerated by Sullivan's inability/unwillingness to get it together in New England either. And by all accounts, for the same reasons. If Belichick & crew couldn't get Sullivan to give a damn, what chance did Haslett and Venturi have?

At the same time, your point about Richt and Seymour speaking highly of the guy, and his outstanding production at Georgia, kind of exonerates the scouting department too (which is why I can't agree with Rocky's indictment of the scouting dept.)

There just weren't any red flags beforehand, I don't think. Sullivan was going to be a first rounder regardless. I seem to remember that the reason we moved up was to get to him before Minny. Now maybe you could say Minny's front office were idiots too. But if not them, it would have been someone else.

I just don't see where picking Sullivan in particular was (overly-)"risky" any more than picking anybody is. Now trading a 1st to move up is risky, but it's risky regardless of who you pick.

So to summarize, my opinion is that it wasn't so much Haslett's fault for not getting him off his butt and away from the buffet table (because Belichick couldn't either) and it's not so much the personnel people's fault for picking Sullivan in the first place (because there really weren't any red flags that I can recall.)

It came down to the old saying: "You never know how a kid is going to respond to all that money." In other words, it was a simple case of really, REALLY bad luck. We picked Dr. Jekyll, gave him truckloads of cash, and it turned him into Mr. Hyde. Would have happened to anyone else who would have taken him, just happened to be us.
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I understand your point about New England not getting anything out of him, but IMHO there comes a point where a player is ruined. I believe that Sullivan was hopeless by the time he got to New England. He had been trained a certain way and that way was not going to cut it in New England. I truthfully believe that had Sullivan gone to a team like New England 1st of all his career would have went in a different direction. Maybe he wouldn't have become an all-pro, but I would be willing to put money on it he would still be in the league playing football.

Again, its only a feeling I have, but I directly attrubute the misfortunes of a lot of of the Saints draftee's to Haslett and his coaching staff. While we will never know what could have happened, I think we will all agree Haslett at least played a significant part in their lack of sucess.
 
Gore said:
So who coached Michael Lewis up? He was so bad as returner that he even lost his job as a returner for Rhein Fire when the Saints sent him to the NFLE. Who coached Jake Delhomme up? Who coached Stinchcomb up? Payton when Stinchcomb couldnt even practice? It was the old staff of course. The same staff that believed in Stinch as a RT when people here said he was a bust or a G at best...

And if the coaches were there problem (because they couldn't teach) and not the players then why didnt anyone else coach them up? Why has nobody been able to coach up Sullivan? Or Watson? Or Kenny Smith? Or Hodge? Isn't it obvious that no coach could coach them up even and that not the coaches but the players were the problem?
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You are attributing Haslett's coaching staff's abilty to coach a player up to a special teams returner and a backup QB that was not played here and didn't get a chance until he went to Carolina? Is it a surpise that 2 years prior to injury Stinchcomb couldn't crack the starting lineup, then the 1st year Payton comes in he struggles in camp, gets re-injured, then steps it up?

Like I said in my prior post, there comes a point in a players career where its hard to make that turn. Sullivan and Watson were damaged goods before they went to New England and Buffalo. Their attitudes were what they were and weren't going to make it with another coaching staff. Kenny Smith actually had a chance, and looked good, in Oakland before he got hurt. Hodge was what he was, a very athletic linebacker with a lack of football intelligence.

Like I said, its my opinion, but I believe Haslett's coaching staff would have ruined just about anyone that came here.
 
Gore said:
So who coached Michael Lewis up? He was so bad as returner that he even lost his job as a returner for Rhein Fire when the Saints sent him to the NFLE. Who coached Jake Delhomme up? Who coached Stinchcomb up? Payton when Stinchcomb couldnt even practice? It was the old staff of course. The same staff that believed in Stinch as a RT when people here said he was a bust or a G at best...

And if the coaches were there problem (because they couldn't teach) and not the players then why didnt anyone else coach them up? Why has nobody been able to coach up Sullivan? Or Watson? Or Kenny Smith? Or Hodge? Isn't it obvious that no coach could coach them up and that not the coaches but the players were the problem?
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I'm on the same wavelength here. Who coached up Joe Horn? A guy who was an underachiever in KC and comes to the Saints to become a ProBowler? Look at Aaron Brooks...a backup in GB comes in and leads the Saints to their first Playoff victory and ends up throwing more TD passes than any QB in Saints history. What about Darren Howard, Charles Grant or Will Smith? Mike Karney was an impact player drafted by Haslett.

Point is...players with the greatest physical abilities or success in College don't pan out in the NFL for whatever reason. Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Cade McNown, Tim Couch, Tony Mandarich, Ron Dayne, RIcky Williams are but a few examples. I'm not for one second buying that Haslett and Co. kept Sully from developing.

Who knows? One day Sully may get his act together and come back stronger than ever.
 
Thanks for the nice words Sunshine & LC.

Chairman_LMAO said:
Good post, and I'd also like to join in the chorus of approval for RockyMtnSaint's post too. Both are very good points, which is why I can't completely agree with either. :D

I think Haslett was at least partially exonerated by Sullivan's inability/unwillingness to get it together in New England either. And by all accounts, for the same reasons. If Belichick & crew couldn't get Sullivan to give a damn, what chance did Haslett and Venturi have?

At the same time, your point about Richt and Seymour speaking highly of the guy, and his outstanding production at Georgia, kind of exonerates the scouting department too (which is why I can't agree with Rocky's indictment of the scouting dept.)

There just weren't any red flags beforehand, I don't think. Sullivan was going to be a first rounder regardless. I seem to remember that the reason we moved up was to get to him before Minny. Now maybe you could say Minny's front office were idiots too. But if not them, it would have been someone else.

I just don't see where picking Sullivan in particular was (overly-)"risky" any more than picking anybody is. Now trading a 1st to move up is risky, but it's risky regardless of who you pick.

So to summarize, my opinion is that it wasn't so much Haslett's fault for not getting him off his butt and away from the buffet table (because Belichick couldn't either) and it's not so much the personnel people's fault for picking Sullivan in the first place (because there really weren't any red flags that I can recall.)

It came down to the old saying: "You never know how a kid is going to respond to all that money." In other words, it was a simple case of really, REALLY bad luck. We picked Dr. Jekyll, gave him truckloads of cash, and it turned him into Mr. Hyde. Would have happened to anyone else who would have taken him, just happened to be us.
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Valid points. I agree that maybe I was too harsh on the scouting department. They thought Sully was the best of the bunch. Heck, I thought Sully was the best of the bunch too. I was genuinely excited about the pick. The front office made their read and they had the conviction to follow through with it and I think that's a good thing. That the read was wrong doesn't change anything.

Does anybody else find it ironic that we made the move to beat Minnesota to the punch but in the end they ended up with the best DT out of that whole list?
 
I have very little doubt that Sully would have been on the board at 17.

keefresh2, thanks for posting that link. It's a reminder of what we were, and hopefully never will be again.

If a team has 2 first round draft choices and uses them both to move up for a guy, they'd better be damn sure that guy will turn out to be an all world player. It was a foolish move, and not just because hindsight is 20/20.
 
I'm so glad I was able to move on and forget about this.
 
hammernnails said:
I never thought of that... but its a good point!!! I think the Steelers would trade Polamalu for LJ straight up right now even though they are high on willie parker..... so I must agree with you.....
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Back when they made this trade, I was mad as anything, as I wanted to see LJ as a Steeler knowing Bettis was about to retire and not knowing Parker even existed yet.

However, considering what happened in 2005/6 with the SB win, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Steelers fan that would want to tinker with how it went down.

However, considering the coaching change in 2007 to a coach more versed in the 4-3 defense, Polamalu might end up gone soon, or at least a more useless safety than he is in the 3-4. Talk to me in two years, I'd trade LJ for Polamalu pretty quick by then I bet.
 
I didn't understand the trade at the time, and I still don't. We had 2 consecutive picks in the first round, which could have easily gotten us 2 better players than Sullivan. Coming into the draft I thought he would be a good 2nd round pickup if he was still available, but when they traded their 2 first picks to get him?

Not a good move.

Top it off with the fact that LJ, Polamalu, and Trufant were all available (Ok, we didn't need LJ, but who on this board would not want Trufant or Polamalu?)... And I say that this was one of the worst moves for the Saints.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the boldhearted move of the Saints' staff, but bad time to do it, and bad person to use it on.

But then again, what discussion are we having if he comes out as the player many expected him to be?
 

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