Realist or Debbie Downer (1 Viewer)

[LetsGetWaffles]

Many, many is 5? Man. I was expecting like 9 or 10.

I'm not taking sides, but 5 of 22 starters is 22.7%. Thats not a small percentage esepcially when you look at how good our Super Bowl season team was where we maybe only had 2 or 3 that were below the league average at their respective positions.

 

[Rugger]

I would add Streif and who ever replaces Ellerbe as he will get hurt.

Strief is not below average. He grades out above average every year. The Strief hate on this forum is an urban legion.

Who will replace Ellerbe (if he is injured?) Anthony? Stupar? Robinson? Ellerbe has looked really good when he has played this preseason and I understand the fear of him missing playing time. With that said, I think we are extremely deep at LBer. On of the best LBer corps that I have seen on this team in a very long time.

 

[Saintshizzle]

That pretty much proves his point.

Out of 22 starters:

LG: Peat = Looked downright good at LG last night.
RG: Lelito or Kelemente = Yep, below average.
DT: Jenkins = He's as decent a run-down NT as most in the league but we've got a lot of depth there as well.
SLB: Stupar or Anthony = Stupar has looked good and Anthony is young. I thought he looked good with the starters as well. Had a nice open field tackle last night.
CB: Williams or Finnegan or Harris or Crawley = Williams has looked really dynamic in coverage, Finnegan has made play after play to earn a spot, Crawley can cover but can't tackle, and Harris can tackle but needs to work on coverage.

Call me optimistic, but if that's the worst we can say about our 5 worst starting spots, we aren't full of holes and don't have a lot of below average starters.

So, if we don't reach the playoffs, yet again, with talent (as you have stated), whats the blame/reason?

Every team has young guys and young talent. Every team has to fit the new in with the old, coach them up for success. We have a HoF QB, and the same coach, still in place. What would be the reason that we don't have a winning season?

Saving for an injury to Brees

 

[saints28]

We have below average NFL starters at many, many positions. It's just a fact.

Hopefully the handful of stars we do have can make up for that fact.

And a coaching staff that has shown 0 ability to develop talent other then what they show up with

 

[DavidM]

That pretty much proves his point.

Out of 22 starters:

LG: Peat = Looked downright good at LG last night.
RG: Lelito or Kelemente = Yep, below average.
DT: Jenkins = He's as decent a run-down NT as most in the league but we've got a lot of depth there as well.
SLB: Stupar or Anthony = Stupar has looked good and Anthony is young. I thought he looked good with the starters as well. Had a nice open field tackle last night.
CB: Williams or Finnegan or Harris or Crawley = Williams has looked really dynamic in coverage, Finnegan has made play after play to earn a spot, Crawley can cover but can't tackle, and Harris can tackle but needs to work on coverage.

Call me optimistic, but if that's the worst we can say about our 5 worst starting spots, we aren't full of holes and don't have a lot of below average starters.

And every team in the league is a mix of stars, average players, and weaknesses - heaviest on varying mixes of average and weak.

Other than OL - which is cause for concern but it's not a given that a serviceable unit can't gel with some time - the areas of biggest concern seem to be where we have some youth, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm not seeing the glaring talent deficiencies that others see. That isn't a prediction of great things this season - it takes more than talent and I think this is a roster with a learning curve ahead - but I think this team is headed in the right direction from the last couple of seasons.

A few observations outside of the much discussed OL - This is potentially the best DL the team has had in a while. WR is a bit of a question mark to me, mostly based on how quickly Thomas develops. Same at CB, can a couple of the young guys make a quick leap? LB group could be more solid than we've seen in recent seasons. Ellerbe should be a difference-maker if he can stay healthy.

Biggest issue for this team might be gaining, and playing with, some confidence.

 

[Rugger]

So, if we don't reach the playoffs, yet again, with talent (as you have stated), whats the blame/reason?

Every team has youn guys and young talent. Every team has to fit the new in with the old, coach them up for success. We have a HoF QB, and the same coach, still in place. What would be the reason that we don't have a winning season?

Why does there need to be a blame/reason? Things happen that are beyond anyone's control. Injuries, bad calls, poor luck. Sometimes player just don't play well. There are countless teams that were loaded with talent that fell short of expectations.

I do not think anyone is saying that we have a locker room full of HOFers. We, like every team, have areas that could be upgraded and frankly, our preseason has not given people many reasons to have concrete optimism going into the season. I get that. I think some criticism is fair. The issue is that some fair criticism opens the door for exaggerated negative nonsense.

We have a lot of talent on this team. This is the best overall defensive unit, with starters and depth, that I think we have had under Payton. I like a lot of the tweaks made on offense. I like Fleener, Thomas, and a healthy Spiller.

I think offensive line had struggled entirely too much this preseason. Armstead is a stud, Unger is very good, Strief is underrated and solid. Guards are a concern. Lelito has had every opportunity to do well here and he does not seem to be developing. I think Peat will settle in very well at LG, but I can understand the concerns with him. He has had a very shaky start to his career.

So to answer your question, I have no idea what the excuses or reason will be if we don't make the playoffs again this year. No one knows, but I would rather spend my time, as a fan, being optimistic about the team then looking for excuses/reasons for failure before the season has even started.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

LOL at Ingram a star!!!
He should not have been resigned, at least at not what they are paying him.

He snuck in to the Pro Bowl last year - if he is not a star, he's certainly above average. I'm trying to be generous and using very broad categories

Anyway, we're built around our passing offense and 3 of 5 OL are weak. That's no bueno.

 

[BoNcHiE]

I'm not taking sides, but 5 of 22 starters is 22.7%. Thats not a small percentage esepcially when you look at how good our Super Bowl season team was where we maybe only had 2 or 3 that were below the league average at their respective positions.

You can go through almost every team in the league and find 5 players who could be argued as being below average.

Even then, those 5 players were a stretch at best.

I would not consider PJ Williams, John Jenkins, Stupar/Anthony, or Peat as below average at their respective positions. I would consider us to have a hole at RG that we need Barnes to hopefully step into.

 

[BoNcHiE]

So, if we don't reach the playoffs, yet again, with talent (as you have stated), whats the blame/reason?

Every team has young guys and young talent. Every team has to fit the new in with the old, coach them up for success. We have a HoF QB, and the same coach, still in place. What would be the reason that we don't have a winning season?

Saving for an injury to Brees

How am I supposed to know what the reason will be almost a half a year from now without a single game being played?

It might end up being injuries, coaching, a few positions lacking talent, young players still growing, or a combination of all of them. Or we might win 10 games but miss out on a wildcard in a heartbreaker. Would that be a failure given how young we are? Maybe we might win 12 games and win the division. Or we might win 7 games and not show progression, which would be a failure. I don't know. All this trying to predict the future in order to feed your narrative is pointless.

I realize you just want to troll about firing Payton though.

 

[stadanko]

Here's the thing, just like with politics, both sides have good points. But some people get so entrenched in one viewpoint or the other, that they only want to cherry pick information that only benefits their argument.

For example, a thread yesterday about how we should only be saying positive things. That's just weird and boring. SR no longer becomes a discussion board at that point. It's really just Saints propaganda then. Just go to the official website for that sort of thing.

But then there's the other side. Like people who think Peat's a bust and only want that to be the truth, so they look for plays where he does bad so they can throw out their I told you so posts. At that point they seem more interested in being right than Peat improving.

So here's a thought. Maybe don't base your SR persona on a hard line either way. It's okay to call out a player for playing badly, but when they start to improve you don't have to hold so strongly to your opinion that you'd rather him look terrible than be a positive contributor for the team. On the flip side, when a player starts doing well and we see posts with the tone of "but but... everyone said _______ is so terrible! Where are all the haters! You're not a true fan" aren't exactly helpful in fostering a good discussion either.

We're all allowed to have an opinion and we're also all allowed to change that opinion from game to game. Just don't get so harsh with criticism of players and other posters that you won't allow yourself to admit that you may have been wrong about something every once in a while.

I yelled at my TV when we drafted Thomas Morstead. I was ecstatic when we stole Jason David away from the Colts. We're not NFL GM's, at least not most of us are (You blow Dimitroff!!!). And even those guys make a ton of poor decisions. I guess what I'm trying to say is let's just have fun, not be so domineering about the tone of every post, and not take ourselves so seriously either. Especially when I've had a couple of Johnny Walker's on game day.

 

[Saintshizzle]

Why does there need to be a blame/reason? Things happen that are beyond anyone's control. Injuries, bad calls, poor luck. Sometimes player just don't play well. There are countless teams that were loaded with talent that fell short of expectations.

I do not think anyone is saying that we have a locker room full of HOFers. We, like every team, have areas that could be upgraded and frankly, our preseason has not given people many reasons to have concrete optimism going into the season. I get that. I think some criticism is fair. The issue is that some fair criticism opens the door for exaggerated negative nonsense.

We have a lot of talent on this team. This is the best overall defensive unit, with starters and depth, that I think we have had under Payton. I like a lot of the tweaks made on offense. I like Fleener, Thomas, and a healthy Spiller.

I think offensive line had struggled entirely too much this preseason. Armstead is a stud, Unger is very good, Strief is underrated and solid. Guards are a concern. Lelito has had every opportunity to do well here and he does not seem to be developing. I think Peat will settle in very well at LG, but I can understand the concerns with him. He has had a very shaky start to his career.

So to answer your question, I have no idea what the excuses or reason will be if we don't make the playoffs again this year. No one knows, but I would rather spend my time, as a fan, being optimistic about the team then looking for excuses/reasons for failure before the season has even started.

I hear you, and agree. Have already stated what I thought on each player.

But the title of this thread was about Realism vs Optimism, and that's what I was trying to lay out....being true to the thread title. It depends on who you are as a person. Most Leaders are not overly optimistic or even optimistic people. Most leaders a real, with a touch of optimism, that comes out here and there...to keep things moving. You can read this article that talks about it: Forbes Welcome

But, I come from a military background, lol, where my focus is on the worst case scenario that the enemy will do to us...and I use MDMP, backward plan from there, developing 3 Courses of Action. When you have tried a few things, changed out much equipment, changed out Soldiers...still no success...that's when it time to change out the leadership 100% of the time. You always remain realistic about that, because optimism will get you and all you lead killed. So, I know that's my mindset, and most guys like me are that way. We have Espirit De Corps, and motivation, but we don't have Blind Optimism, we will get rid of you in a minute before make an excuse for you.

I would never want to change. Most reads will tell you that Optimism, especially optimistic without reason, is a hindrance to needed change to improve a unit. In fact, one of the quickest ways to get your *** handed to you on a platter, is to get up, in front of the general, with some self-edifying rosy picture of a thing, that you have failed on twice already and it looks like you are heading for failure again. You don't want to be THAT guy, because only parts of you will walk out of that briefing. The other parts will be eaten and digested before you can get back to your desk, to reattack it.

Different mindset, I get it...bc the penalties for failure are different bt Military and Football. But, both are really structured the same...they still have units, troops, and commanders leading them. Too much optimisms hinders change, because it takes the fans to get mad, eat the *** of the leader so we can make the necessary changes needed for future success.

You're welcome.

 

[whodat4eva]

And a coaching staff that has shown 0 ability to develop talent other then what they show up with

That's the bigger problem.

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[play action]

adjustments that were not made in the preseason will be made in the reg. season. that will really be evident on d in the back seven. I think allen will find ways to get pressure against Oakland. As far as helping out the o line,more quick passes, bootlegs, screens etc.will be in play next week as well. I think the team will be much improved when the coaches start playing with a full deck. That being said, they definitely were average with the cards they used the last four weeks. I do expect the team to play well against the raiders, drew and sean just seem to have their number.

 

[St.Fury]

And a coaching staff that has shown 0 ability to develop talent other then what they show up with

Some of us like to continually spew out lies. If we repeat them enough, others believe. This is one of those cases.

Tyler Davison, Bobby Richardson, Kaseem Edibali, Damian Swann...those are just a few of the more recent guys that have improved over last year.

 

[Shemp]

That's the bigger problem.

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It is also patently false and incredibly ignorant.