N/S Reason I’m NOT convinced Brady is the GOAT (1 Viewer)

[ndcc]

I have several, many relating to his being in the paltry AFC East. But here’s my #1:

His 2007 team delivered a perfect 16-0 regular season, and waltzed through the playoffs.

Their SB opponent was an NFC Wild Card team.

His defense held their opponent to less than 20 points in the game.

On the biggest stage in sports history, they had a legitimate shot at 19-0, but...

...he didn’t get it done.

 

[BuddyDeesGhost]

He's no Pat Mahommes, but he might be remembered as an okay quarterback still.

 

[Tony1Saintfan]

Football is a team sport, and Brady doesn’t win one ring without the teams that were around him. Put him and the Bills and they would have the same number of rings they do now. Put Brees on those teams with Sean Coaching and they would have 8 rings.

 

[44slayer]

The dude has the numbers, not quite Brees numbers, and he has won 5 Super Bowls and has been to 8.

Brees is my guy. Id take him over Brady 8 days a week because of what he has been to the city and the region. But he has been to 1 Super Bowl. Sometimes you gotta call it what it is. Brady is the goat. QBs are judged by Super Bowls, plain and simple. Marino was decades ahead of his time, but he didnt win a SB so he doesnt even sniff the conversation.

 

[faceman]

I have several, many relating to his being in the paltry AFC East. But here’s my #1:

His 2007 team delivered a perfect 16-0 regular season, and waltzed through the playoffs.

Their SB opponent was an NFC Wild Card team.

His defense held their opponent to less than 20 points in the game.

On the biggest stage in sports history, they had a legitimate shot at 19-0, but...

...he didn’t get it done.

The Giants almost defeated them in the last regular season game. The Giants D-line presented matchup problems for the Pats O-line. It still took a miracle catch by Tyree and a sure INT going through Asante Samuels hands for the Giants to win that SB.

 

[Saint Kamara]

To be honest the AFC CG in.2007 was a foreboding of what was to come, which is Brady would choke away history. They would only score 21 against San Diego.

 

[KingNene]

The dude has the numbers, not quite Brees numbers, and he has won 5 Super Bowls and has been to 8.

Brees is my guy. Id take him over Brady 8 days a week because of what he has been to the city and the region. But he has been to 1 Super Bowl. Sometimes you gotta call it what it is. Brady is the goat. QBs are judged by Super Bowls, plain and simple. Marino was decades ahead of his time, but he didnt win a SB so he doesnt even sniff the conversation.

100% disagree. Why do rings even matter for a quarterback? Barry Sanders is widely considered the greatest running back of all time but doesn't have a ring. This is not basketball where one player can drag a team through the playoffs. Rings shouldn't matter because this is the epitome of team sports.

 

[2fya]

Your argument for tom brady not being the goat is because he didn't win the final game to make a perfect season?

So we can exclude all QBs who lost a game during a season from being the goat

 

[ndcc]

Your argument for tom brady not being the goat is because he didn't win the final game to make a perfect season?

So we can exclude all QBs who lost a game during a season from being the goat

It’s the setting; it’s the stage; it’s the biggest moment. That aura isn’t there on opening Sunday.

Again: He didn’t get it done!

I did not say that Brady isn’t the GOAT; I said that I’m not convinced that he is the

Greatest
Of
All
Time

Peace, out.

 

[faceman]

It’s the setting; it’s the stage; it’s the biggest moment. That aura isn’t there on opening Sunday.

Again: He didn’t get it done!

I did not say that Brady isn’t the GOAT; I said that I’m not convinced that he is the

Greatest
Of
All
Time

Peace, out.

Football is still a 53 man sport. That 07 loss wasn't the fault of Brady. Tyree makes that catch 1 out of 1000 times. If it's incomplete, brady kneels the clock out to a perfect season.

 

[kwkrnu]

Brady has never won anything without a very good defense backing him. He's a really good QB...in the top 5 all time, even. But GOAT? I don't think so.

It's all speculation anyway....Brees is, in my mind, the best QB to ever play the game. And that's all that matters.

 

[ChaChingBaby]

I really hate how "QB Winz" is determined for the GOAT.

One of the fallacies to this argument is that it's some how worse to lose in the SB than the conference title game. It's also worse to miss the playoffs all together, rather than go one and done.

"Clutch" is also the most empty term used in sports.

I'll give you a great example right here. Credit to Eric Drews on Football Perspective for this comment -

This player IS NOT clutch: Quarterback overcomes six sacks to rally his team from 13 points down in the final 20 minutes against the league's No. 2 defense and wins after a late touchdown pass. Finishes with nearly 300 yards and a 114.0 passer rating. The following week he goes into one of the most difficult places to win in NFL History against the league MVP and matches him step for step. Late in the 4th quarter, he throws a clutch bomb on 4th down to put his team to within a few yards of the potential game winning touchdown. The play is overturned by a questionable rule. He never touches the ball in the final five minutes. Despite completing nearly 80% of his passes and posting a 143.6 passer rating, he loses by 5 points and is eliminated.

This player IS clutch: He struggles to score points in blizzard like conditions, but finds himself within 3 points in the closing minutes. He apparently loses the game by failing to see a blitz and fumbling after a sack, but the fumble is overturned by an obscure rule. He completes 1 of his next 3 passes to get just close enough for his kicker to miraculously make a 45 yard field goal in a blizzard to force overtime. The quarterback then leads a methodical drive with short passes to win the game with another FG. In the Championship game on the road against the number one seed, he leaves a 7-3 game in the 2nd quarter with a knee injury. His team still wins after his backup QB and special teams each contribute touchdowns. In the Super Bowl, this quarterback throws for 92 yards in the first 58 minutes, yet finds himself tied with 2 minutes to play due to his defense holding one of the greatest offenses in NFL history to just 17 points and scoring a touchdown on an interception. This quarterback completes five passes, four of which were short dump offs, and watches as his kicker drills a 48 yard field goal as time expires. This performance wins him Super Bowl MVP.


The first QB is Tony Romo and his 2014 post season. The clutch QB is Tom Brady from 2001.


I could make tons of examples. Jim Kelly, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino and Brett Favre all get the "choker" label despite circumstances that are never talked about in their playoff losses.

For Jim Kelly, he was going up against serious juggernaut teams that not only over-matched Buffalo, but were light years ahead of them in talent. That Giants team they lost to had the #1 defense all year and Kelly still played a pretty good game. Washington and Dallas were simply far better teams that crushed them. But still, Buffalo had a 4-0 record in conference title games, so how is he a "choke artist"?

Further more on Jim Kelly; one of the QBs he faced in the SB was the guy he met twice: Troy Aikman. Aikman has 3 rings. By default of the ring argument, Aikman is the better QB right? I will defend Aikman that he was better than people give him credit for, but a better QB than Jim Kelly, he absolutely was not and there is stats to back it up.

I could go on and on with this. Peyton Manning gets the "choker" label despite people not sitting down and going through all those playoff losses. Is it really his fault that his kicker screwed up on field goals? Or Nick Harper ran down the middle of the field on a fumble return? Or Rahim Moore giving up a hail mary bomb? Or the Colts defense just crapping the bed to Tomlinson and Sproles?

I don't care how many rings Brady wins, he's not the GOAT and I don't even put him in the top 5. Pull up a Tom Brady highlight video and it's just a compilation of him in the pocket, throwing 1-5 yard checkdown passes where the receiver racks up huge YAC gains. This is the reason there is an argument for him vs Rodgers or Manning back in the day. It's painfully obvious he's not the GOAT when judging by talent. The only argument for him is RINGZ RINGZ RINGZ.

 

[Alaina]

I don't agree with the synopsis, but I'll note that Brees has a considerably better performance history in the playoffs compared to Brady. People like to blame Brees for what is basically Beastquake, Vernon Davis, and the Minny Miracle. People don't understand that's been the Saints MO for every single one of the Saints losing seasons since he got here.

 

[ChaChingBaby]

I don't agree with the synopsis, but I'll note that Brees has a considerably better performance history in the playoffs compared to Brady. People like to blame Brees for what is basically Beastquake, Vernon Davis, and the Minny Miracle. People don't understand that's been the Saints MO for every single one of the Saints losing seasons since he got here.

Brees and Manning both have outplayed Brady in the playoffs.

The problem for Brady is similar to people who make arguments for MJ or Kobe Bryant being the GOAT in the NBA. They look at the win column, count the win and then work their way backwards. Cause with the W, they absolutely must've been the main factor in the win. NBA fans do this all the time to argue why LeBron James is a "choke artist", despite him always losing to super teams like Golden State in the Finals, kinda like how Jim Kelly had to deal with much better Washington and Dallas teams in the SB.

Brees will get blamed for that 49ers playoff loss, even though he led a huge comeback and was absolute money late in that game. But the Saints lost, so it must've been his fault.

Same thing with the Minnesota playoff loss. It's apparently Brees' fault they blew an easy assignment on defense and forgot how to tackle.

It's the same thing with Peyton Manning. He gets the "choker" label for the 2005 playoff loss, even though Nick Harper* decided to run down the middle of the field after the Bettis fumble, instead of going down the sideline where it could've been returned for a TD. Then to make matters worse, the Colts kicker misses an easy field goal that would've sent it to OT. Manning's 18 point storming comeback is completely erased. Since Pittsburgh won, that means Big Ben must've out-dueled him.

The Colts beat New England in the 2006 playoff, but Manning don't even get credit for that. People pull up his TD/INT ratio from that playoff run to hold it over his head, without looking into the context that despite throwing a bunch of interceptions, he still led a huge comeback on the Pats and beat them. Manning's 2 post season losses to New England were on the road in Foxboro. He beat them 3 times when at home.

Another one for Manning; the 2012 playoff loss to Baltimore. Yes he threw a pick in the 2nd OT quarter, but it wasn't his fault that Rahim Moore pulled a Marcus Williams on that hail mary bomb to send it to OT.

Brady has a losing record in the playoffs on the road. Thankfully for him, he usually has top 10 defenses, one of the best coaches ever and the Pats routinely get cupcake teams as their first victims in the playoffs. They get to blow out crappy teams before heading to the AFC title game.

When people start overlooking RINGZ RINGZ RINGZ, we see where he's really an overrated quarterback. Rings should not determine where a QB ranks all time. As I said in my previous post, Troy Aikman has 3 rings and generally played really well in those 3 SB wins, but there is no way in hell I am taking him over Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon or even Ken Anderson.

 

[Alaina]

I can't agree with you on Brady being out of the top 5 all time. I think he's very consistent and puts up great numbers and based on that he probably is in my top 5. I think there's a serious argument that he's not the GOAT though, and that his "clutch" is very overrated. Problem is that a large chunk of people sounding off that he's the GOAT are simpletons, homers, or casual watchers that think the QB's greatness resides in a bubble despite the other 30+ players that see the field on any given game.

Could you imagine the change in perception of Brees if just half of the comebacks he's orchestrated that were sunk by his very own defense instead saw a Saints holding a team to not scoring a TD in some incredible breakdown? Last year in Minny, or 2011 in SF especially. Change those very last plays of the game ... and we could be talking about Brees going for his 4th ring right now instead and the idea that Brady is the GOAT would be laughed at because, if we did end up winning it all in 2011 or 2017 it would always be DID YOU SEE WHAT BREES DID IN SF AND MINNY?!

And Brees is just an example. I use it because those are always fresh in my mind. There are countless examples of damn good QB's getting screwed by their own defenses despite some well orchestrated turn around being forked by some boneheaded defensive slip up or a bad ref call. But Brady gets a cozy, neat rule because he messed up and gets excused for his team spying on people and takes a light penalty for literally cheating with the football in the Super Bowl. Meanwhile, the Saints supposedly do something that didn't even effect game play and they're branded as cheaters for eternity AND lose their head coach for an entire year, a group of players for 4-8 weeks, and 4 draft picks over 2 years time in the process.