N/S Reason I’m NOT convinced Brady is the GOAT (2 Viewers)

[Saintsfan8989]

Enlighten me as to who is the GOAT in your opinion. Rings, its Brady - easy to figure this one, he has 5. Rings and stats, its Brady - the only guys in the conversation statistically are Brees, Manning and Favre - and they have 4 rings. COMBINED. Im sick of the Patriots as much as the next guy. But even if you are anti Patriots to the core, you simply cannot make an argument against Brady. Anyone you put up, they just cant compete with Brady's resume. Brady mightve played in a historically weak division, but lets not forget that the AFC was the better conference for quite a while - he still had to maneuver through Mannings Colts, Baltimores defenses, the Steelers etc to get to 8 Super Bowls.

I cant stand Floyd Mayweather, but I cant tell you anyone, asides from Roy Jones Jr in his prime, that was a better boxer. You might think he fights boring and he has hit women, but the guy simply has no peers as a boxer in this generation. Just because you dont like a guy, you still have to be honest about what he is in the sport. You dont like Khabibs style, but the guy is 29-0 in MMA.

Montana. 4-0 in SB's. Helped create the west coast offense. Had more signature moments in my opinion (The Catch & SB 23).

Brady was the beneficiary of a great defense in his first three SB wins. Once that defense began rebuilding, he went a decade without winning the big game.

 

[ChaChingBaby]

If there is any proof that SB wins are not a QB stat, we can use Manning and Brady for evidence.

Peyton Manning's last 2 SBs are clear proof you can't go by SB ring count to judge QBs. In 2013, he was by far, the best quarterback in the league by a sizable margin. Inflated stats or not, there was no denying he was the #1 guy that year, yet he got destroyed in the SB. In 2015, he was the worst starting QB that year, again by a considerable margin and his team won the SB by 14 points. Every QB that he beat head to head was better than him that year - Big Ben, Brady and Newton. But Manning is the one with the SB 50 ring, not them.

We can say the same thing about Tom Brady. Is Tom Brady of 2001 a better QB than 2007 Brady? The 2001 version is the one with a SB ring, not the 2007 version of him who broke records, won an MVP and had a team with a 16-0 record. Was Brady better between 2001 to 2005 vs the Brady from 2006 to present? Because the first one was 3-0 in the SB, while the other one is 2-3 in the big game.

They call football "the ultimate team sport" for a reason...Let's put an end to the ring argument once and for all.

As I've said before, we can pick on other QBs besides Brady about the ring argument. Look no further than Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman. Both of them won multiple SBs with an undefeated record in the big game, but does that make them better than the other elite QBs of their era?

For Bradshaw, you have some serious competition of that era with the likes of Staubach, Tarkenton, Griese and Stabler. Bradshaw ended up with the most rings and a 4-0 record, but that's not to take away that his competition couldn't go toe to toe with him. The guy on the losing end of both Pittsburgh/Dallas SBs, arguably outplayed him in both games (Dallas was as hail mary attempt away from beating them in the first SB, and an onside kick/dropped TD pass from beating them in the rematch). Compare Staubach and Bradshaw side by side and Staubach is the clear winner in everything outside of RINGZ.

For Troy Aikman, I have never met anyone outside diehard Cowboys homers who actually do put him over Brett Favre and Steve Young in the 90's era just because of his 3-0 record in the SB. From 1990 to 1995, the best QB in the league only won the SB once - Steve Young in 1994, he's the sole exception. Aikman isn't even in the top 3 of the 3 years Dallas won the SB (but I will give him props for 1992. His post season run that year was incredible and deserves praise).

Let the ring argument die.

 

[44slayer]

Montana. 4-0 in SB's. Helped create the west coast offense. Had more signature moments in my opinion (The Catch & SB 23).

Brady was the beneficiary of a great defense in his first three SB wins. Once that defense began rebuilding, he went a decade without winning the big game.

Agreed in that Montana is the only guy who has a legitimate argument. Bradys stats though, even in a pass happy QB protected era, are more impressive than Montanas were in his era.

You guys are high as a kite if you don't believe QBs are judged, in large part, by SB wins. There is simply no other position on any other team sport in the world that is held more responsible for their teams success as an NFL QB.

If you take SBs completely out of the equation, which you cant, then theres no peer to Dan Marino. The numbers he put up in that era are mind blowing. He threw for 5k in 1984 - it wouldn't happen again until 24 years later.

BUT. Marino doesn't even sniff the conversation. He is barely an afterthought because of the goose egg he has in the SB column.

Brady
Montana
Manning
Brees
Unitas

That's how it stands in my eyes. Brees wins another 1 or 2 and he moves into 2nd because his stats are just herculean to the point where it makes it hard to argue against him. I think another 1 or 2 SB wins and you can then start using things like Brees' defensive lack of help and division, conference, etc to make a legitimate case that he is the GOAT and Brady was a product of favorable conditions. But with Bradys combination of stats and rings, right now it is what it is.

 

[IceHot]

Enlighten me as to who is the GOAT in your opinion. Rings, its Brady - easy to figure this one

You meant to say Otto Graham who has 7 - right.

 

[sfidc3]

Montana. 4-0 in SB's. Helped create the west coast offense. Had more signature moments in my opinion (The Catch & SB 23).

He also had a great offensive line, a great defense and HOF skill players, oh and perhaps one of the most innovative offensive coaches in NFL history...if you are going to use the popular line that Brady is great because of the team and coaching staff then it works both ways....Montana is a huge beneficiary of both...

 

[UFCSaint]

I think what you are saying is put SP and DB in the AFC East and we have a lot of rings. Listen to the talking heads now panicking about the Pats not having home field in the playoffs. If they played in the NFC South they would not have all those rings

Exactly my point. They have had a cakewalk to get homefield advantage year after year.

 

[UFCSaint]

He also had a great offensive line, a great defense and HOF skill players, oh and perhaps one of the most innovative offensive coaches in NFL history...if you are going to use the popular line that Brady is great because of the team and coaching staff then it works both ways....Montana is a huge beneficiary of both...

Let's not forget that the 49ers didn't have to deal with free agency during the Montana years and they had an owner who was crooked enough to get around it when it was implemented.

 

[UFCSaint]

Agreed in that Montana is the only guy who has a legitimate argument. Bradys stats though, even in a pass happy QB protected era, are more impressive than Montanas were in his era.

You guys are high as a kite if you don't believe QBs are judged, in large part, by SB wins. There is simply no other position on any other team sport in the world that is held more responsible for their teams success as an NFL QB.

If you take SBs completely out of the equation, which you cant, then theres no peer to Dan Marino. The numbers he put up in that era are mind blowing. He threw for 5k in 1984 - it wouldn't happen again until 24 years later.

BUT. Marino doesn't even sniff the conversation. He is barely an afterthought because of the goose egg he has in the SB column.

Brady
Montana
Manning
Brees
Unitas

That's how it stands in my eyes. Brees wins another 1 or 2 and he moves into 2nd because his stats are just herculean to the point where it makes it hard to argue against him. I think another 1 or 2 SB wins and you can then start using things like Brees' defensive lack of help and division, conference, etc to make a legitimate case that he is the GOAT and Brady was a product of favorable conditions. But with Bradys combination of stats and rings, right now it is what it is.

Mine would be:

Brady
Montana
Brees
Manning

And I would move Brees up if he wins another Superbowl.

 

[IceHot]

He also had a great offensive line, a great defense and HOF skill players, oh and perhaps one of the most innovative offensive coaches in NFL history...if you are going to use the popular line that Brady is great because of the team and coaching staff then it works both ways....Montana is a huge beneficiary of both...

Interestingly enough they didnt have that many HoF skill Players (Roger Craig was stellar but not a HoFer)...

Montana
Rice (not on the team for either the first or 2nd SB)
Lott
Haley (not on the team for the first or 2nd SB)
and Dean (not on the team for the 3rd or 4th SB)

Well technically they had Steve Young, but lets not over credit the talent..

 

[IceHot]

You know who else never gets mentioned - Sonny Jurgensen even though he lead the league in passing yards more times than Favre, Elway, Warner, Aikman, Montana, Stabler, Starr, Staubach, Young, and Kelly combined.

 

[UtahSaint]

Just my opinion and I'm a homer so take it with a grain of salt...

Super Bowls are a team accomplishment. Tom Brady is a great QB but he plays on a great team with a great coach.

In 2008 Brady was injured in the first game of the season. He was replaced by Matt Cassel. The Patriots finished the year with an 11-5 record.

In any season since 2006, if the Saints would've had to replace Brees with Matt Cassel, would they have gone 11-5?

It's not fair to use Super Bowl wins as the only factor when determining the greatest QB.

 

[NeverGiveUP2]

You meant to say Otto Graham who has 7 - right.

Yea and let's bring Terry Bradshaw into the conversation if its all about rings.... Its not and he is not in the conversation of course. Just illustrates the hypocrisy of anointing Brady because of the rings. Brady is great... DB is the GOAT

 

[IceHot]

My Top 5 QBs
Otto
Brees
Brady
Marino
Montana

 

[faceman]

You meant to say Otto Graham who has 7 - right.

Graham led the Browns to 10 consecutive NFL title games and won 7. Both are NFL records. The former will never be broken.

edit. 3 of those titles were in the AAFC. The league merged with the NFL in 1950. Commissioner Bert Bell wanted to embarrass the browns. He scheduled their first NFL game with the two time defending champion Eagles. The Browns beat them 35-10.