Rebuilding takes time (1 Viewer)

[Saintshizzle]

So you are taking what's being said by a DC who has never been overly successful, whose defenses have always been lower level in the league and has been controlled by coaches and assistants in every job he's had as gospel? A guy who publicly said he had no idea what talent he was getting, yet Payton has a proven record of getting the players and talent his DCs need and want. There have been more higher draft picks, and draft picks total spent on defense than offense under Payton. Maybe his hiring of Allen is him saying that he's tired of the owning draft picks and money down a hole every couple years, let's get a young open minded coach who will actually coach what he has well. They were 3/4 to finish the season. That was directly because of the changes Allen brought to the defense.



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I gave Sean the BOTD, for that. Mostly linked it to show how Sean really began to dip into the defensive side of the ball, without much knowledge of that side. It stepped on the DC toes. He is trying to figure it out, when we possibly should have hired a DC, one that will say "I got this...you handle the Offense".

 

[gumbotron]

we seem to be rebuilding a house of cards

 

[No2DC]

I gave Sean the BOTD, for that. Mostly linked it to show how Sean really began to dip into the defensive side of the ball, without much knowledge of that side. It stepped on the DC toes. He is trying to figure it out, when we possibly should have hired a DC, one that will say "I got this...you handle the Offense".

He's too old and his ego is too big after winning the SB. I thinks its too late for Sean, he's set in his ways. Established coaches rarely bring in someone on their level. This situation is going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[AARPSaint]

1) Figure out who the next QB will be. For now get the players that will complement Brees's skill set. That is done IMHO with the addition of Thomas and possibly Lasco. Left undone is the replacement of Nicks, Evans, and Strief. Regardless of how mobile the next QB is, he'll need some protection.
2) Try to keep the same DC for a few years instead of drafting players for one scheme only to be a poor fit for the next DC's scheme.

The bad personnel decisions should also include the Galette situation. Was is really difficult to see that he was the proverbial ticking time bomb? The team lost a lot of cap space with his dead money PLUS their best pass rusher, and that continues to resonate.

 

[Cajun Chat]

He's too old and his ego is too big after winning the SB. I thinks its too late for Sean, he's set in his ways. Established coaches rarely bring in someone on their level. This situation is going to get worse before it gets better.

I don't see it that way. I see a guy who is continually evaluating his team, his coaches and his own coaching. Nobody has it all figured out. The NFL is ever changing. Free agency has made continuity very difficult. He knew we had a problem evaluating talent. We bring in Jeff Ireland. I think the evaluation process is better. Again it just takes time. I want to see how Dennis Allen does this year. I think he is what we need. Let's see when healthy if we can improve and play with passion. That's what I'm looking for and expecting from this team this year. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Cajun Chat]

Kikaha appears to be a situational pass rusher who isn't special at rushing the passer. Anthony just got moved or demoted depending how you look at it, and we had to give up a young pro bowl TE to acquire him. Breaux has been a good addition but we lost our #1 corner Lewis, so the roster didn't actually improve just simply treading water. I also notice you didn't bother to mention Peat in that draft class.

The "rebuilding" process has been going on for several seasons and you admit it looks like another 7-9 season this year. So there's no measurable improvement after years of rebuilding. Don't make excuses saying that it "takes time" when the truth is we made too many bad decisions on contracts and in the draft. The state of the O line is infuriating. I think Sean Payton ate his own cheese or something because the excellence we used to expect from his team is no more.

Kikaha has the ability to be more. Injuries have gotten in his way.

Anythony - Sometimes you draft a guy for a position you think he's best suited and during the process you decide that you need to put him in a better position to succeed. If you have had any time running or being around the building of a business this happens all the time. I think that is the case with Anthony.

Peat - Sometimes you think you have something in an employee that isn't there and it's not what you thought or maybe it's not going as fast as you'd like. You make a decision to live with this decision or do I move on. I think that is where they are at in the evaluation of Peat. It's too early to tell. Granted the early returns haven't been stellar but let's see what happens with him. It might be a mistake or maybe he's just a late bloomer.

Finally, the Oline is the biggest concern. That's been widely acknowledged by even SP. Did changing the OL coach have something to do with that or has it been the lack of talent or foresight that we could make a go with what we have? My sense tells me it might be a little bit of all of that. We will see.

 

[mccombmike]

We all know where this team is in preseason. Yes, it is preseason. No one on this board is more concerned about the offensive line than Sean Payton. He knows the clock is ticking for his franchise QB. In the midst of that we began a rebuilding process about 2 years ago. Last year was the first significant step of what looks to be a solid core. Anthony, Breaux, Kihaha and possibly PJ Williams. By any measure that is a significant haul for an off season. Add to that this year's promising class and the rebuild is under way but it takes time to develop these players. Not everyone is a top-tier player coming out of college.

It's unusual for teams to reload at this level. If you look around the league its the New England Patriots and well uhhhh the New England Patriots. Our record in the SP era is near the top. Granted 3 of the last 4 years have been 7-9 campaigns and this year could be about that type of record...give or take a game or two but make no mistake the infusion of young talent is here.

The hard part is having at a QB who is in the twilight of his career. The concern is our QB is within that 2-3 year window of playing at a high level. If we can build on the last couple of years of drafts and free agency, its conceivable that Drew could finish like Elway did on the heels of Terrell Davis with a couple of Lombardi's.

This season adjust your expectations instead of Super Bowl or bust and enjoy the development of our young guys and know the ultimate prize maybe closer than it was the last 2 years. Of course we all want to win (I know each loss cuts me too deep sometimes) but if we look past the W's and L's the future looks quite bright. Leave it to SP to find our next franchise QB to go with this young group. It might help to readjust expectations for this season.

I think you at right, but you don't address something that has been troubling me these days. I don't think this team is good this year. We could end up 6-10.

This brings us to Drew Brees. They can't get him signed, and next year his franchise number is impossible. So after this year he could walk.

We won't win a lot of games this year. The Oline is too bad. The DLine has a ways to go.

So maybe we trade Brees now for a ton of picks and a serviceable QB and just write off the year. If that sounds bad to you, consider the alternative. The team goes 6-10, finishes last in the NFC South, and we lose Brees anyway for nothing, or we cave and sign him for money that keeps us in cap hell for another 4 years.

The team is in a tough spot.

Before you say not no but hell no, remember that the Colts dealt Manning and it worked out for them, and 49ers dealt Montana and it worked for them, Green Bay did it with Favre and it worked, and NE did it with Drew Bledsoe and it worked. It can work. Not saying we should definitely do it, but worth considering.

 

[Saintshizzle]

I think you at right, but you don't address something that has been troubling me these days. I don't think this team is good this year. We could end up 6-10.

This brings us to Drew Brees. They can't get him signed, and next year his franchise number is impossible. So after this year he could walk.

We won't win a lot of games this year. The Oline is too bad. The DLine has a ways to go.

So maybe we trade Brees now for a ton of picks and a serviceable QB and just write off the year. If that sounds bad to you, consider the alternative. The team goes 6-10, finishes last in the NFC South, and we lose Brees anyway for nothing, or we cave and sign him for money that keeps us in cap hell for another 4 years.

The team is in a tough spot.

Before you say not no but hell no, remember that the Colts dealt Manning and it worked out for them, and 49ers dealt Montana and it worked for them, Green Bay did it with Favre and it worked, and NE did it with Drew Bledsoe and it worked. It can work. Not saying we should definitely do it, but worth considering.

So look, we have seen the emotions tied to what you are saying...hell I thought Inside, Dan in Lafayette or Fury were going to challenge me to a duel at some point. But, what you are saying is not only plausible, it's what The Patriots and any other team would have done already...especially if the QB won't work with the team.

That would give us picks, and money going into next year. We find a veteran to take the team for a season and we get one of the better, if not the best, QB coming out next year and start over...with a true rebuild.

You see, we aren't really rebuilding with the same folks in place here. It's retooling. Retooling is different from rebuilding because when you retool, you are just replacing peripheral parts, the command philosophy is still in place...most often the outcome never changes. A retool is an engine change. But, we are where we are, and I don't see them doing anything but going into the season, allowing Brees to take a chance.

Again, we don't know if SP has started adapting the play yet. History says he won't, but we played Drew differently that last few games of the season. Gonna be interesting.

 

[SunshinePumper]

I think you at right, but you don't address something that has been troubling me these days. I don't think this team is good this year. We could end up 6-10.

This brings us to Drew Brees. They can't get him signed, and next year his franchise number is impossible. So after this year he could walk.

We won't win a lot of games this year. The Oline is too bad. The DLine has a ways to go.

So maybe we trade Brees now for a ton of picks and a serviceable QB and just write off the year. If that sounds bad to you, consider the alternative. The team goes 6-10, finishes last in the NFC South, and we lose Brees anyway for nothing, or we cave and sign him for money that keeps us in cap hell for another 4 years.

The team is in a tough spot.

Before you say not no but hell no, remember that the Colts dealt Manning and it worked out for them, and 49ers dealt Montana and it worked for them, Green Bay did it with Favre and it worked, and NE did it with Drew Bledsoe and it worked. It can work. Not saying we should definitely do it, but worth considering.

The Colts released Peyton Manning when they knew they had an ability to draft a once in a generation prospect and it wasn't certain whether Manning was going to handle playing with his back issue. Every other team listed here had a succession plan in place. Garrett Grayson isn't a succession plan as of right now. We can't just deal Drew just because we might go 6-10. Every team could go any record any year based on a multiplicity of factors. But we have improved the defense. We've finished no lower than 7 wins every year in the Payton era in spite of having record settingly bad defenses. So I don't see how it's likely that we're going to now when the defense isn't going to be setting futility records.

 

[Saintshizzle]

The Colts released Peyton Manning when they knew they had an ability to draft a once in a generation prospect and it wasn't certain whether Manning was going to handle playing with his back issue. Every other team listed here had a succession plan in place. Garrett Grayson isn't a succession plan as of right now. We can't just deal Drew just because we might go 6-10. Every team could go any record any year based on a multiplicity of factors. But we have improved the defense. We've finished no lower than 7 wins every year in the Payton era in spite of having record settingly bad defenses. So I don't see how it's likely that we're going to now when the defense isn't going to be setting futility records.

Actually, if we traded and got some good picks for him, that would be due to 7-9, 7-9, 6-10 (projected), and the money he demands, plus how it effects our ability to really rebuild. This team needs some lift. I'm hoping....really praying that we can come out and win 3 of the first 4 games. I know that seems unlikely, but that's why we pray. I think, if we can just get on a win streak, many of the things we need to work on will be done with more motivation. Right now...with the past losing seasons, and the poor showings in preseason, we even have pundits talking about us .... well ... differently.

If we lose the first few games...it will bite us hard that we did not make a huge move to help the team.

 

[RJ in Lafayette]

I largely agree with AARPSaint above.

I was thinking we were one year away, though I am now starting wonder with the last two preseason games, especially the Pittsburgh game.

Assuming good health, we need at least four more players--a guard, a second offensive lineman, a defensive end, and a linebacker.

This is what I would do going forward:

1. Exercise some prudence in free agency with the big-name signings. Our free agency decisions over the past few years have been bad. I don't know who has been making these decisions, but they have been overall bad.

2. What is the good in the long-term may also be good in the short-term. Stop trading up and stop trading away future picks.

3. I know from the statistics that drafting is harder than many think, but I do not understand drafting players who seemingly lack the physical skills to play close to the level expected given where they were drafted. Picking Jean-Baptiste in the second round was incompetence. And I realize that the 2015 draft at the top was not deep and did not break our way, but it appears that no team should have picked Andrus Peat in the top 25 picks. I get it that it can hard to predict which players drafted high will become complacent after signing a big contract or will become injured. But it should be much less difficult for competent personnel people at the NFL level to evaluate which players have the requisite physical traits to play.

 

[Cajun Chat]

I think you at right, but you don't address something that has been troubling me these days. I don't think this team is good this year. We could end up 6-10.

This brings us to Drew Brees. They can't get him signed, and next year his franchise number is impossible. So after this year he could walk.

We won't win a lot of games this year. The Oline is too bad. The DLine has a ways to go.

So maybe we trade Brees now for a ton of picks and a serviceable QB and just write off the year. If that sounds bad to you, consider the alternative. The team goes 6-10, finishes last in the NFC South, and we lose Brees anyway for nothing, or we cave and sign him for money that keeps us in cap hell for another 4 years.

The team is in a tough spot.

Before you say not no but hell no, remember that the Colts dealt Manning and it worked out for them, and 49ers dealt Montana and it worked for them, Green Bay did it with Favre and it worked, and NE did it with Drew Bledsoe and it worked. It can work. Not saying we should definitely do it, but worth considering.

I really don't think we will be worse than last year especially on the defensive side of the ball. We can go any lower...I don't think Offensively, we may step back but I still think regardless of the line play we won't fall beyond 10th. Overall I think we will be slightly better but it may not be reflective in our overall record. The schedule is much more difficult this year than last. I don't know what the record will be. I've been in the 6-10 to 7-9 camp but who really knows based on pre-season.

Trading Drew is tough. To some degree he helped bring our franchise to respectability. It's hard to justify when I really believe with any sort of protection he is still a top 5 QB and maybe for another year or two. It's often said it's better to let a player go a year too early than a year too late. Does that apply here? I just can't see #9 in any other jersey than the black and gold.

You are right, it's a tough spot.

 

[REBELMAX]

I largely agree with AARPSaint above.

I was thinking we were one year away, though I am now starting wonder with the last two preseason games, especially the Pittsburgh game.

Assuming good health, we need at least four more players--a guard, a second offensive lineman, a defensive end, and a linebacker.

This is what I would do going forward:

1. Exercise some prudence in free agency with the big-name signings. Our free agency decisions over the past few years have been bad. I don't know who has been making these decisions, but they have been overall bad.

2. What is the good in the long-term may also be good in the short-term. Stop trading up and stop trading away future picks.

3. I know from the statistics that drafting is harder than many think, but I do not understand drafting players who seemingly lack the physical skills to play close to the level expected given where they were drafted. Picking Jean-Baptiste in the second round was incompetence. And I realize that the 2015 draft at the top was not deep and did not break our way, but it appears that no team should have picked Andrus Peat in the top 25 picks. I get it that it can hard to predict which players drafted high will become complacent after signing a big contract or will become injured. But it should be much less difficult for competent personnel people at the NFL level to evaluate which players have the requisite physical traits to play.

Usually at some point somebody ( GM or Owner ) steps in and says enough.

Our GM is a schill for the Head Coach , I honestly don't think he has very much roster input at all beyond the salary cap ramifications.
Remember this past offseason it was confirmed that SP was calling the CB from Carolina Norman and obviously wanted him but we couldn't make the money work.

It is also very obvious that after getting beat like a drum by the Seahawks SP wanted a ball hawking Safety of his own ( Byrd ) and he pushed to get him so Loomis did. It goes on and on.

I don't think that there was a plan to " rebuild " as of the Graham trade. SP blamed the losses on the " culture " that was created when he wasn't in the building so we went after and talked about ' character ' etc.

I think the rebuild acknowledgement came early last year as the losses piled up.

SP is an impulsive, risk taker and if that kind of guy is controlling the roster with absolute control it doesn't bode well for an attempted methodical and strategic rebuild attempt.

The owner is drooling on himself and the GM is a ' cap guy '. Who is the talent and personnel guy ? That's SP 100%. The Jeff Ireland hire is a joke. He answers to SP that is very obvious. The 2015 Draft was all SP. the way he spoke about Andrus Peat - post draft - about him knowing his Father etc. the personal workouts with Grayson.

When Brees goes that will be SP's last game as Saints HC. Mark my words.

They tried and failed to bring this team around during the prime of a HOF QB's career. You can see it in SP eyes when he talks post game. The brashness is gone.
They just don't have the players and for the last 5 or really 6 years when they could have reloaded they missed on too many players and traded away that many more picks.

 

[El Caliente]

I'm not sure how much of our recent successes are tied to us rebuilding less than we are cash strapped. We have talent, we have brought in talent, we have drafted talent, but we have $20+ mil sitting on the sidelines in the way of dead cap space. I wonder how many of our woes would be solved if we had that money to work with.

 

[REBELMAX]

I'm not sure how much of our recent successes are tied to us rebuilding less than we are cash strapped. We have talent, we have brought in talent, we have drafted talent, but we have $20+ mil sitting on the sidelines in the way of dead cap space. I wonder how many of our woes would be solved if we had that money to work with.

Maybe - The Gallette deal just absolutely killed us. I know for me at least - it was hard to completely understand how devastating that was going to be when they cut him loose.