Refs blew double pass (4 Viewers)

[Scorpius the Allfather]

It happened way too quick for him to think it threw. He may not have even known the rule since it is such a rare opportunity. I think it was a pure instinct reaction. that any QB would have done. It happened so quick that all I knew initially was that something odd happened and needed to see it again to catch on.

I think he knew. It looked like he was hoping no one would notice and get away with it.

 

[syracuse saint]

When the penalty is a clear advantage for the team that receives the benefit, the refs don't check with the benefitting team to enforce it, they just enforce the penalty. So, if they gave LA the option, that was not correct and misleading. You never see them check with the sideline on a penalty that gives clear advantage. Have you ever seen an intentional grounding penalty declined (other than final play of the game, or an intercepted pass)?

 

[Bill]

All this comes a few weeks after I pointEd out how the refs of yesteryear were so much better than the refs today. I’ll mention them again — Jerry Markbreit, Red Cashion, Ben Dreith, Fred Wyant, Chuck Heberling, Johnny Grier, Gordon McCarter....guys who reffed (mostly) before instant replay made the current generation too timid to make a call.

Nowadays, you have total incompetence from the top down. You had Dean Blandino as chief of refs for several years despite never being a ref himself. On TV, Gene Steratore passes as a “dean” of the profession....I think he always played favorites out there, personally.

There is absolutely no doubt that the infusion of instant reply has made it harder to officiate a football game. When the official's call was 'law', no one had a chance to see a dozen or more different angles of the call that would be shown in ultra slow motion with each camera time-synced to get the complete picture of what actually happened. Even with all of these 'improvements' there are still disagreements and the play often remains as initially called on the field.

I know that everyone wants the right call all the time. But that just ain't gonna happen no matter how hard they try. And more & more the officials are having to second guess themselves as they try to call it as they see it.

 

[efil4stnias]

When the penalty is a clear advantage for the team that receives the benefit, the refs don't check with the benefitting team to enforce it, they just enforce the penalty. So, if they gave LA the option, that was not correct and misleading. You never see them check with the sideline on a penalty that gives clear advantage. Have you ever seen an intentional grounding penalty declined (other than final play of the game, or an intercepted pass)?

Intentional grounding is automatic loss of down and spot foul ( yardage lost from where QB threw ) thats why.

THIS WAS NOT THAT. The rule is CLEAR. Page 2 in this thread

. NFL rules attachement- page 2 A.R. 8.1 - they give you the scenario that played out ( minus TD ) last night. The penaly is 5 yard loss- replay the down.

THATS WHY RAMS DECLINED.

 

[hankster2]

Loss of down is not my question and I understand why the penalty was declined. My question is how does an illegal forward pass become a legal forward pass? You can't throw the ball beyond the line twice. Declining a penalty doesn't make that a legal action.

I don't agree that declining the penalty should've resulted in 4th and 2. It should've been 4th and 10 (or whatever) or 3rd and 15 with the penalty.

So far everyone who has come in and said "i figured it out. Case closed. Refs got it right." Has missed the actual question.

 

[Bill]

Loss of down is not the question and I don't care why the penalty was declined. How does an illegal forward pass become a legal forward pass? You can't throw the ball beyond the line twice. Declining a penalty doesn't make that a legal action.

I don't agree that declining the penalty should've resulted in 4th and 2. It should've been 4th and 10 (or whatever) or 3rd and 15 with the penalty.

Yes, we all agree that it SHOULD result in the type of disadvantages you just mentioned. But as of right now, the official rule regarding that infraction does not read that way, and the officials called it correctly according to the 'faulty' rule. Perhaps the rules committee will rewrite the rulebook and get the punishment for that infraction corrected in the future.

 

[hankster2]

Yes, we all agree that it SHOULD result in the type of disadvantages you just mentioned. But as of right now, the official rule regarding that infraction does not read that way, and the officials called it correctly according to the 'faulty' rule. Perhaps the rules committee will rewrite the rulebook and get the punishment for that infraction corrected in the future.

Respectfully (and maybe I missed it) I don't see where folks are getting that the illegal forward pass becomes legal. I see nothing that leads me to believe the choices shouldn't be 4th&10 or 3rd&15.

The play was whistled before the WR was tackled meaning the play was over when the ball left Brady's hand the second time.

 

[efil4stnias]

Loss of down is not my question and I understand why the penalty was declined. My question is how does an illegal forward pass become a legal forward pass? You can't throw the ball beyond the line twice. Declining a penalty doesn't make that a legal action.

I don't agree that declining the penalty should've resulted in 4th and 2. It should've been 4th and 10 (or whatever) or 3rd and 15 with the penalty.

So far everyone who has come in and said "i figured it out. Case closed. Refs got it right." Has missed the actual question.

Ok i see what you are saying here.

Once the foul was committed, the opposition now has the ability to accept or decline. ( in this particular instance ). If accepted, its 3rd and 15 ( 5 yard penalty- replay the down ) if declined, the yardage from second pass is accepted and play moves to next down. ( in this case- 4th down )

So its still an illegal pass. That never changed. The yardage and next down from the pass is either accepted or declined by the affected party. so the rams chose to have them at 4th and 2 instead of 3rd and 15 ( giving them a legit shot at making a first down without consequences - aka going for it on 4th and not getting it )

It was always an illegal pass. The party that fell victim ( if you will ) now has the decision to make.

 

[Bill]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where you're getting that the illegal forward pass becomes legal. I see nothing that leads me to believe the choices shouldn't be 4th&10 or 3rd&15.

The play was whistled before the WR was tackled meaning the play was over when the ball left Brady's hand the second time.

The play may have been whistled inadvertently or because the receiver's momentum was stopped. I don't know. But the Bucs seemed to be given credit for the catch at the point where the second forward pass was caught. The flag was thrown to denote that the second catch was a penalty. But since the Bucs would have gotten another chance to get the first down by accepting the penalty, Sean McVay made the decision to refuse the penalty because the placement of the 2nd catch left the Bucs with a 4th & 2 situation. Accepting the penalty would have resulted in a 5 yard penalty from where Brady threw his 2nd forward pass. But it appears that because both passes occurred behind the line of scrimmage, the 5 yard walk-off would have allowed the Bucs to replay the 3rd down.

It's a bad rule that should be changed because in the future a QB in the same situation (ball batted back to him on a 3rd down play) will just throw another pass to get the down over again (if the penalty is enforced). Frankly any second forward pass anywhere on the field should carry a loss of down punishment as part of the rule. The opponent shouldn't have to decide if he wants to give the other team another chance to advance the ball and possibly sustain a drive. It makes me wonder what McVay would have done if the second forward pass on that play was stopped about a foot from the line to gain a first down. He may have had to take the penalty and give Brady another down farther back in order to avoid a 4th and very short attempt.

 

[hankster2]

The play may have been whistled inadvertently or because the receiver's momentum was stopped. I don't know. But the Bucs seemed to be given credit for the catch at the point where the second forward pass was caught. The flag was thrown to denote that the second catch was a penalty. But since the Bucs would have gotten another chance to get the first down by accepting the penalty, Sean McVay made the decision to refuse the penalty because the placement of the 2nd catch left the Bucs with a 4th & 2 situation. Accepting the penalty would have resulted in a 5 yard penalty from where Brady threw his 2nd forward pass. But it appears that because both passes occurred behind the line of scrimmage, the 5 yard walk-off would have allowed the Bucs to replay the 3rd down.

It's a bad rule that should be changed because in the future a QB in the same situation (ball batted back to him on a 3rd down play) will just throw another pass to get the down over again (if the penalty is enforced). Frankly any second forward pass anywhere on the field should carry a loss of down punishment as part of the rule. The opponent shouldn't have to decide if he wants to give the other team another chance to advance the ball and possibly sustain a drive. It makes me wonder what McVay would have done if the second forward pass on that play was stopped about a foot from the line to gain a first down. He may have had to take the penalty and give Brady another down farther back in order to avoid a 4th and very short attempt.

Once again... this has all been stated repeatedly and I fully understand the situation and what happened. I'm saying that allowing the pass yardage in the context of declining the penalty is the part I question and I haven't seen anyone give evidence that shows that the pass yardage should've been allowed if the penalty was declined.

Here's evidence to the contrary:

Article 2 Legal Forward Pass. The offensive team may make one forward pass from behind the line during each down. If the ball, whether in player possession or loose, crosses the line of scrimmage, a forward pass is not permissible, regardless of whether the ball returns behind the line of scrimmage before the pass is thrown

Pretty cut and dry.

Notice there's no asterisk saying "unless the penalty is declined". It says not permissible.

I'm still convinced the refs botched the call. It should've been 4th and 10 with the penalty declined.

 

[DaveXA]

Talked about this in the game thread last night. As some others correctly stated, according to the options given to McVay by the officials, the correct call was made to force a 4th down. A second pass from behind the LOS is clearly not a loss of down penalty according to the rules. The Rams were correct to decline the penalty.

That said, the NFL needs to change the rule so that any time a second pass is thrown behind the LOS, the play is considered ruled dead (incomplete pass) at that point and the ball is spotted at the original line of scrimmage. I'm not a fan of the second pass being allowed to stand when a penalty is declined. The officials called it correctly, but the NFL needs to specifically correct the rule.

I had a bigger problem with ruling the Brady fumble in the end zone a pass. That was absolutely not a pass.

 

[Merl]

Once again... this has all been stated repeatedly and I fully understand the situation and what happened. I'm saying that allowing the pass yardage in the context of declining the penalty is wrong and I have yet to see anyone give evidence that shows that the pass yardage should've been allowed if the penalty was declined.

Here's evidence to the contrary:


Pretty cut and dry.

Notice there's no asterisk saying "unless the penalty is declined". It says not permissible.

I'm still convinced the refs botched the call. It should've been 4th and 10 with the penalty declined.

No they didn't botch the call. Unless the rule specifically states otherwise a declined penalty means the result of the play stands.

I will agree that a rule change should be put in to include loss of down if this should happen again.

 

[DaveXA]

No they didn't botch the call. Unless the rule specifically states otherwise a declined penalty means the result of the play stands.

I will agree that a rule change should be put in to include loss of down if this should happen again.

Yeah, the 5 yard penalty plus loss of down would put an instant stop to attempted 2nd passes from behind the LOS. Better off just knocking the ball down at that point.

Tbh, I was just a bit surprised the Bucs didn't go for it on 4th there. They were down 7 in the 4th and needed a spark. I think I would have pressed the issue at that point. If they convert that, then there would be all kinds of talk about that double pass play.

 

[efil4stnias]

Once again... this has all been stated repeatedly and I fully understand the situation and what happened. I'm saying that allowing the pass yardage in the context of declining the penalty is wrong and I have yet to see anyone give evidence that shows that the pass yardage should've been allowed if the penalty was declined.

Here's evidence to the contrary:


Pretty cut and dry.

Notice there's no asterisk saying "unless the penalty is declined". It says not permissible.

I'm still convinced the refs botched the call. It should've been 4th and 10 with the penalty declined.

imma help you out here. in the quoted above

PASSES the LINE OF SCRIMMAGE.

The batted ball didnt PASS the LOS.

The rule you are talking about above is if a QB RUNS PAST LOS and throws. ( or RB ) ...or flea flicker where the RB runs PAST LOS then tosses back.

I hope this clears it up now.

 

[DaveXA]

imma help you out here. in the quoted above

PASSES the LINE OF SCRIMMAGE.

The batted ball didnt PASS the LOS.

The rule you are talking about above is if a QB RUNS PAST LOS and throws. ( or RB ) ...or flea flicker where the RB runs PAST LOS then tosses back.

I hope this clears it up now.

Correct, as long as the passer is behind the LOS, the first pass is legal and second is illegal. Think like when a qb approaches the LOS to pass, every part of his body has to be fully past the line before an illegal forward pass can be called..

Brady could have advanced the ball by running. We've seen that happen to Drew on very rare occasions where he caught his own pass and tried to advance the ball. It's actually considered a completed pass to himself.

Some weird rules, but they mostly work. The lack of a loss of down on the illegal forward pass needs to be addressed though.