Roger Clemens.... (1 Viewer)

[Waymer]

Clemens didn't juice to gain muscle, power, or increase the speed of pitches he did it to stay in the game. Sorry if this hurts peoples feeling but there's a reason that every professional athletes careers ended in their late 30's or very early 40's before steriods and HGH. Your body breaks down and does not recover as quickly. While it's true people age differently, no one escapes the ravages of time. Even guys like Jerry Rice and Brett Farve lose a step. Juice helps extend the period before breakdown and help decrease recovery time.

Not necessarily a good analogy. Cy Young pitched until he was 44 and pitched more games than anyone in history, a whopping 815 (749 complete games). George Blanda QB'd the AFC title game at 43. There are exceptions in every generation. I'm not saying Clemens did or didn't, because I am on the fence, but others have matched Clemens on some occasions and still be successful.

 

[Bundok Saint]

I don't really see how that taped conversation with the trainer helped his cause at all. Neither said anything definite and, to me, Clemens seemed to be measuring his words very carefully.

If he would have come out and said something like, "You know I have never taken any steroids, why would you lie?" and the trainer agreed. That would've helped Clemens' cause more.

I couldn't care less either way, though. I'm not a big baseball fan.

 

[HouDat]

Clemens didn't juice to gain muscle, power, or increase the speed of pitches he did it to stay in the game. Sorry if this hurts peoples feeling but there's a reason that every professional athletes careers ended in their late 30's or very early 40's before steriods and HGH. Your body breaks down and does not recover as quickly. While it's true people age differently, no one escapes the ravages of time. Even guys like Jerry Rice and Brett Farve lose a step. Juice helps extend the period before breakdown and help decrease recovery time.

Ever hear of this Nolan Ryan fellow?

On May 1, 1991, Rickey Henderson broke Lou Brock's career stolen base record by stealing his 939th career base. However, Henderson's achievement was somewhat overshadowed because Ryan, at age 44, set a record that same night by throwing the seventh no-hitter of his career, striking out Roberto Alomar of the Toronto Blue Jays for the final out.

 

[Ti Rider]

Not necessarily a good analogy. Cy Young pitched until he was 44 and pitched more games than anyone in history, a whopping 815 (749 complete games). George Blanda QB'd the AFC title game at 43. There are exceptions in every generation. I'm not saying Clemens did or didn't, because I am on the fence, but others have matched Clemens on some occasions and still be successful.

I knew someone would post examples like Cy Young, George Blanda, Gordie Howe. Howe is the one true oddity. He longevity is unrivaled. But Young and Blanda were used up at the end of their careers. Notice their ages - Young 44 and Blanda 43. Neither were still playing at a high level unlike Clemens who's 46.

 

[LSSpam]

We're going to find out a lot more about him in the next few months

I sure as hell hope not. I thought we were threw with this crap when Bonds broke Aaron's record. Now we get to gear up for a whole new round?

 

[LSSpam]

I knew someone would post examples like Cy Young, George Blanda, Gordie Howe. Howe is the one true oddity. He longevity is unrivaled. But Young and Blanda were used up at the end of their careers. Notice their ages - Young 44 and Blanda 43. Neither were still playing at a high level unlike Clemens who's 46.

Nolan Ryan is the only comporable player. He threw a no-hitter at 44 and finished that season with a sub 3.00 ERA. He also kicked Robin Ventura's *** when he charged the mound.

That said, Ryan never had as sharp of a "decline and rebirth" as Clemens experienced to end his career in Boston and then his years in Toronto.

 

[Lord Scyther]

Nolan Ryan recently threw the opening pitch at a minor league game. It was an 85 MPH fastball. He is 60 years old.

 

[billinms]

There is a recorded phone conversation between Clemens and McNamee that sounds pretty good for Clemens' case.

Clemens: You just need to come out and tell the truth.

McNamee: I don't have any money. I have nothing. I'm not doing a book deal. I got offered seven figures to go on TV. I didn't do it. I didn't take it. I didn't do anything. All I did was what I thought was right — and I never thought it was right, but I thought that I had no other choice, put it that way. And I think when I spoke with your guys, that I laid it out there. And I was sick. I was in the hospital.

Clemens: I didn't do it, this, you know, all this stuff. And I just, like I said, I'm numb to everything.

McNamee: Roger, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?

Read more (tm DD)
http://www.nysun.com/article/69061

 

[d3vanj]

Heard it on Sports Center just now. Interesting story

 

[stunpals]

There is a recorded phone conversation between Clemens and McNamee that sounds pretty good for Clemens' case.

Clemens: You just need to come out and tell the truth.

McNamee: I don't have any money. I have nothing. I'm not doing a book deal. I got offered seven figures to go on TV. I didn't do it. I didn't take it. I didn't do anything. All I did was what I thought was right — and I never thought it was right, but I thought that I had no other choice, put it that way. And I think when I spoke with your guys, that I laid it out there. And I was sick. I was in the hospital.

Clemens: I didn't do it, this, you know, all this stuff. And I just, like I said, I'm numb to everything.

McNamee: Roger, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?

Read more (tm DD)
http://www.nysun.com/article/69061

This is the confusing part.

McNamee: Roger, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?

What would have been your response to this question by your trainer? I would have said... tell the truth you lying SOB! I would say this is interesting but baseball and HGH/steriods is soooooooo old.

 

[taygolf]

This is the confusing part.

McNamee: Roger, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?

What would have been your response to this question by your trainer? I would have said... tell the truth you lying SOB! I would say this is interesting but baseball and HGH/steriods is soooooooo old.

Yeah Roger went on and on about how he was trying to control himself and that is why he did not go off on the guy which I think is bull. I think Roger simply wanted to get McNamee to dance around a little with out really addressesing the issue. If he really wanted to addresses the issue on the phone he would have said something like:

Roger: "Hey man sorry to hear about your son. I hate to change to subject but WHY THE HELL DID YOU GO AND LIE ABOUT ME YOU ****************************
**********************************************************************************************"
McNamee:"Roger what do you want me to do??? I got nothing Roger this is killing my son! They offered me 7 figures to go on TV and I didnt do it!"

Roger: "Like I said I am sorry about your son but IT IS YOUR FREAKING FAULT YOU LOSER! WHY DID YOU LIE??? WHAT DO I WANT YOU TO DO!?!?! I WANT YOU TO TAKE THE 7 FIGURE TV DEAL AND GO ON THERE AND TELL THE FREAKING TRUTH AND THEN GO OUT SIDE AND SHOT YOURSELF YOU SOB!!!"

If Roger would have done that I would have been more prone to believe him. By dancing around it the whole conversation it kept McNamee from directly coming out and saying yes you did Roger you did it and you know it and then pointing out a certain instance when it happened.

There are just to many holes in this story in my opinion

T

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Yeah Roger went on and on about how he was trying to control himself and that is why he did not go off on the guy which I think is bull. I think Roger simply wanted to get McNamee to dance around a little with out really addressesing the issue. If he really wanted to addresses the issue on the phone he would have said something like:

Roger: "Hey man sorry to hear about your son. I hate to change to subject but WHY THE HELL DID YOU GO AND LIE ABOUT ME YOU ****************************
**********************************************************************************************"
McNamee:"Roger what do you want me to do??? I got nothing Roger this is killing my son! They offered me 7 figures to go on TV and I didnt do it!"

Roger: "Like I said I am sorry about your son but IT IS YOUR FREAKING FAULT YOU LOSER! WHY DID YOU LIE??? WHAT DO I WANT YOU TO DO!?!?! I WANT YOU TO TAKE THE 7 FIGURE TV DEAL AND GO ON THERE AND TELL THE FREAKING TRUTH AND THEN GO OUT SIDE AND SHOT YOURSELF YOU SOB!!!"

If Roger would have done that I would have been more prone to believe him. By dancing around it the whole conversation it kept McNamee from directly coming out and saying yes you did Roger you did it and you know it and then pointing out a certain instance when it happened.

There are just to many holes in this story in my opinion

T

This is my general view as well. It really seemed like a verbal waltz rather than a direct conversation.

 

[Waymer]

The problem with what you guys are describing is that it's pushing a fine line with obstruction of justice according to ESPN's Roger Cossack. In theory, if Clemens had said "I want you to tell the truth you $@&%!," and then Mac does change his story then you've (in theory) obstructed justice or possibly coerced someone into saying something they didn't mean which I guess gets into other issues. That's why the verbal waltz IMHO, since they were dependent on using the tape. They were trying to get him to say he lied, but they couldn't just come out and directly ask him or lead him into telling a different story. It had to be information given up on Mac's own willingness. That's my understanding, otherwise it compromises the lawsuit (the tape is evidence in the suit) and eliminates future options.

I'm no lawyer, I don't even pretend to be one...that's just the paraphrase from Roger Cossack. But perhaps JE or Widge or others here can speak to that better than me.

 

[Mamba]

I sure as hell hope not. I thought we were threw with this crap when Bonds broke Aaron's record. Now we get to gear up for a whole new round?

Well, it's Clemens who's suing the guy and also testifying before Congress. Like it or not, get ready for a whole new round.

 

[Pure Energy]

The problem with what you guys are describing is that it's pushing a fine line with obstruction of justice according to ESPN's Roger Cossack. In theory, if Clemens had said "I want you to tell the truth you $@&%!," and then Mac does change his story then you've (in theory) obstructed justice or possibly coerced someone into saying something they didn't mean which I guess gets into other issues. That's why the verbal waltz IMHO, since they were dependent on using the tape. They were trying to get him to say he lied, but they couldn't just come out and directly ask him or lead him into telling a different story. It had to be information given up on Mac's own willingness. That's my understanding, otherwise it compromises the lawsuit (the tape is evidence in the suit) and eliminates future options.

I'm no lawyer, I don't even pretend to be one...that's just the paraphrase from Roger Cossack. But perhaps JE or Widge or others here can speak to that better than me.

I heard this yesterday driving home from the office and I waited the entire time for Clemens to get Mac to admit to lying or dishonesty neither of which I heard.

I'm not an attorney either but I see no reason why Roger couldn't have asked:

Did you ever inject me with anything other than Lidocaine or B-12? Did you ever inject me with Steroids or HGH?

My thought is he didn't ask the question because he wasn't what confident as to the answer Mac would have provided.

Items that raised my antenna:

Clemens....So much of it is untrue that it's just tearing everybody apart. (Implication is some if it is true).

Clemens....I didn't do it, this, you know, all this stuff. (Why use the word all here versus ANY of?)

Clemens.... And like I said, I just can't believe what's being said. (He can't believe it because it's not true or because it should have been kept private?)

McNamee.....All I did was what I thought was right — and I never thought it was right, but I thought that I had no other choice, put it that way. (He doesn't admit he lied but it seems he is implying that snitching was bad).

Does anyone know what the reference to the "cat from the NY Mets is about"?