Run game early (1 Viewer)

[mither_rome]

I honestly just don't think you understand, man. Our first penalty on that drive came off of a..... run. Did you watch the game?



After a zero yard gain on the ground with a holding call.. on 1st and 20 you want to run again for what.. say, 3-5 more yards? We passed for 4 yards and got into a manageable 2nd down. We then passed it for 12 on 2nd and 16, which is a great gain for the down and distance giving us a 3rd and 4, but Ramcyzk got beat and held digging us in a deeper hole. 2nd and 26, we get 15 but then get the blindside block (garbage call). Are you really saying that running on 1st and 20 or 2nd and 16 would have saved this drive? Either your memory is fuzzy, or you literally just don't understand. The playcalling was fine on that drive, we just can't hold 2 times in a span of 3 plays.

"We passed for 4 yards and got into a manageable 2nd down."

4 yards. Meaning roughly an average gain on a run play. and kamara was averaging almost 7. is this a productive point? at all?

'but Ramcyzk got beat and held digging us in a deeper hole."
"we just can't hold 2 times in a span of 3 plays."

How often is holding called on a run play?

Your emotions are raw, brother. You're not seeing the logic here.

I'll concede your point though. This was really well thought out. They ran it the perfect amount.

 

[Xeno]

I honestly just don't think you understand, man. Our first penalty on that drive came off of a..... run. Did you watch the game?



After a zero yard gain on the ground with a holding call.. on 1st and 20 you want to run again for what.. say, 3-5 more yards? We passed for 4 yards and got into a manageable 2nd down. We then passed it for 12 on 2nd and 16, which is a great gain for the down and distance giving us a 3rd and 4, but Ramcyzk got beat and held digging us in a deeper hole. 2nd and 26, we get 15 but then get the blindside block (garbage call). Are you really saying that running on 1st and 20 or 2nd and 16 would have saved this drive? Either your memory is fuzzy, or you literally just don't understand. The playcalling was fine on that drive, we just can't hold 2 times in a span of 3 plays.

Kamara is the shiftiest back this side of McCaffrey and when was the last time you saw the Saints run anything close to a draw play that wasn't just a Taysom Hill option run? I honestly can't remember. They were averaging over 6 yards a carry going into that drive and the defense just had its arse handed to it.

 

[Xeno]

Digging a little deeper, we can go all the way back to the Saints' third possession. 1:10 in the 1st quarter, 10-0 Saints. From that drive onward the Saints ran the ball seven times. Twelve of nineteen carries came on the first two drives. That's bad play calling and/or bad game planning.

edit: Correction, they ran eight times. So 11/19 carries came from the first two drives.

 

[Nolan]

"We passed for 4 yards and got into a manageable 2nd down."

4 yards. Meaning roughly an average gain on a run play. and kamara was averaging almost 7. is this a productive point? at all?

'but Ramcyzk got beat and held digging us in a deeper hole."
"we just can't hold 2 times in a span of 3 plays."

How often is holding called on a run play?

Your emotions are raw, brother. You're not seeing the logic here.

I'll concede your point though. This was really well thought out. They ran it the perfect amount.

You're really splitting hairs about a decision to pass on 1st and 20 instead of running it (after a previous 0 yard run and a holding call)? Do you think getting to 2nd and 13 would have saved that drive? Sure, maybe. Odds are it wouldn't have, though. I saw nothing from our passing attack tonight that suggested that we were going to pick up a 3rd and 10+ if we got there. Maybe you're right.... but we're still literally just talking about ONE DRIVE and ignoring the blatant problem that our defense could not make a single stop after the Raiders second offensive drive. Carr and the Raiders passing attack literally controlled this game entire game. Aside from that penalty riddled drive, Raiders defense forced punts on both 3rd and 5 & 3rd and 7.. both of those being down and distances you HAVE to convert even (especially) as a strong running team.

I've seen Payton abandon the run PLENTTTTY over the course of his tenure year, and it's cost us games before. I'm not sitting here blindly defending him. I just don't think that this is the game to be upset with him about it when our defense absolutely had a pitiful outing allowing the Raiders to just own the entire 2nd half.

 

[mither_rome]

You're really splitting hairs about a decision to pass on 1st and 20 instead of running it (after a previous 0 yard run and a holding call)? Do you think getting to 2nd and 13 would have saved that drive? Sure, maybe. Odds are it wouldn't have, though. I saw nothing from our passing attack tonight that suggested that we were going to pick up a 3rd and 10+ if we got there. Maybe you're right.... but we're still literally just talking about ONE DRIVE and ignoring the blatant problem that our defense could not make a single stop after the Raiders second offensive drive. Carr and the Raiders passing attack literally controlled this game entire game. Aside from that penalty riddled drive, Raiders defense forced punts on both 3rd and 5 & 3rd and 7.. both of those being down and distances you HAVE to convert even (especially) as a strong running team.

I've seen Payton abandon the run PLENTTTTY over the course of his tenure year, and it's cost us games before. I'm not sitting here blindly defending him. I just don't think that this is the game to be upset with him about it when our defense absolutely had a pitiful outing allowing the Raiders to just own the entire 2nd half.

I'm not too upset about it. If my defense seems lost, can't get off the field, and I'm racking up penalty yards at a record clip, all while my top wideout is in sweats, I run the ball. Someone said it best in another thread - we win this game going away if we let Kamara and Murray carry the rock. And saying we didn't have the ball enough is silly, because we weren't even attempting to control the ball. I don't know why you're making that controversial. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Nolan]

Digging a little deeper, we can go all the way back to the Saints' third possession. 1:10 in the 1st quarter, 10-0 Saints. From that drive onward the Saints ran the ball seven times. Twelve of nineteen carries came on the first two drives. That's bad play calling and/or bad game planning.

edit: Correction, they ran eight times. So 11/19 carries came from the first two drives.

I'll agree with this somewhat as far as the 1st half goes. Our 3rd drive when it was 10-0 and they had shown zero signs of slowing our run attack down, we ran for 5 yards on 1st down. Two straight incompletions leading to a punt. Maybe a run on 2nd down would have extended that drive and we would have gotten points. Our next drive we scored a touchdown, and the last drive was a 2 minute drill in which Drew threw the pick.

My problem with splitting hairs this critically to where we're criticizing specific play-calls on specific drives is, that why aren't we saying anything when we're scoring touchdowns and everything is working? 17 points in the first half is respectable and we got points on 3 out of 5 possessions in the 1st. If you really dig deep and get mad at Sean for not running on that 2nd and 5 in the 1st half, and that 1st and 20 in the 2nd half.. be my guest, but there are much bigger and glaring issues. Maybe like Drew throwing an inexcusable interception and our defenses inability to get a single stop.

 

[mither_rome]

I'll agree with this somewhat as far as the 1st half goes. Our 3rd drive when it was 10-0 and they had shown zero signs of slowing our run attack down, we ran for 5 yards on 1st down. Two straight incompletions leading to a punt. Maybe a run on 2nd down would have extended that drive and we would have gotten points. Our next drive we scored a touchdown, and the last drive was a 2 minute drill in which Drew threw the pick.

My problem with splitting hairs this critically to where we're criticizing specific play-calls on specific drives is, that why aren't we saying anything when we're scoring touchdowns and everything is working? 17 points in the first half is respectable and we got points on 3 out of 5 possessions in the 1st. If you really dig deep and get mad at Sean for not running on that 2nd and 5 in the 1st half, and that 1st and 20 in the 2nd half.. be my guest, but there are much bigger and glaring issues. Maybe like Drew throwing an inexcusable interception and our defenses inability to get a single stop.

I get what your saying - but I'm not questioning specific plays. I'm questioning how you go from a gameplan of back to back downhill running at a 7 yard clip in the 1st quarter to dinking and dunking with your 40 year old QB. It was a shift that occurred while we were in the lead. It's just odd.

 

[Xeno]

I'll agree with this somewhat as far as the 1st half goes. Our 3rd drive when it was 10-0 and they had shown zero signs of slowing our run attack down, we ran for 5 yards on 1st down. Two straight incompletions leading to a punt. Maybe a run on 2nd down would have extended that drive and we would have gotten points. Our next drive we scored a touchdown, and the last drive was a 2 minute drill in which Drew threw the pick.

My problem with splitting hairs this critically to where we're criticizing specific play-calls on specific drives is, that why aren't we saying anything when we're scoring touchdowns and everything is working? 17 points in the first half is respectable and we got points on 3 out of 5 possessions in the 1st. If you really dig deep and get mad at Sean for not running on that 2nd and 5 in the 1st half, and that 1st and 20 in the 2nd half.. be my guest, but there are much bigger and glaring issues. Maybe like Drew throwing an inexcusable interception and our defenses inability to get a single stop.

I'm pointing at specific calls but it's a compounding issue. At a certain point their defense realized the Saints just weren't going to run the ball anymore. Not running the ball means leaving more clock for them to inevitably chew up because our defense can't stop them. There's an argument to be made about the offense using screens and swing passes to supplement the run game but frankly any time Kamara's on the field the defense is looking for him to take it out wide like that. The offense relies on putting the ball in the air far too much. Run until they can consistently stop you. One three yard run isn't a good reason to stop running.

 

[Nolan]

I fully understand the point that you're both making and I 100% agree with you guys in theory, I just feel like we never really had the opportunity to do it in the 2nd half especially going back and breaking down each offensive drive. I still think that we lose this game even if we run the ball more, but that's just my opinion.

Sean does need to figure this thing out though, because while I understand that he's used to having a deadly accurate short passing game that we've worked magically from 2017-2019.. it's just not there anymore. The rhythm, the accuracy have all been way off sync and at times the protection has been shaky. We do need to show teams that we're willing to stick with the run and do it enough to where we can create more opportunities off of play-action.

 

[nolaswede]

I'll agree with this somewhat as far as the 1st half goes. Our 3rd drive when it was 10-0 and they had shown zero signs of slowing our run attack down, we ran for 5 yards on 1st down. Two straight incompletions leading to a punt. Maybe a run on 2nd down would have extended that drive and we would have gotten points. Our next drive we scored a touchdown, and the last drive was a 2 minute drill in which Drew threw the pick.

My problem with splitting hairs this critically to where we're criticizing specific play-calls on specific drives is, that why aren't we saying anything when we're scoring touchdowns and everything is working? 17 points in the first half is respectable and we got points on 3 out of 5 possessions in the 1st. If you really dig deep and get mad at Sean for not running on that 2nd and 5 in the 1st half, and that 1st and 20 in the 2nd half.. be my guest, but there are much bigger and glaring issues. Maybe like Drew throwing an inexcusable interception and our defenses inability to get a single stop.

Wasn’t that the drive where Harris dropped a relatively easy pass for a first down? At that time, they couldn’t stop
our run or pass offense.

Later it just got weird with too may pass attempts.

 

[Nolan]

Wasn’t that the drive where Harris dropped a relatively easy pass for a first down? At that time, they couldn’t stop
our run or pass offense.

Later it just got weird with too may pass attempts.

yep.. we were up 10-0. 2nd and 5 and Deonte drops an open pass at the sticks. Deonte had a wide open drop, Sanders had 2 wide open drops, Montgomery had a wide open drop. At some point blame has to be spread around.

 

[Jb25saints]

Can someone tell me why we have Latavius Murray?

Let’s give him to the chiefs so they can use his talent

 

[nolaswede]

yep.. we were up 10-0. 2nd and 5 and Deonte drops an open pass at the sticks. Deonte had a wide open drop, Sanders had 2 wide open drops, Montgomery had a wide open drop. At some point blame has to be spread around.

We were dominating on both sides of the ball at that time. Then it just got ugly. Great adjustments by the Raiders, and we didn’t change one bit.

 

[LiterOCola]

Payton gonna Payton.

 

[Deucewildin]

We never had issues running the ball the entire game Payton simply just stopped