Saints being officiated differently from opponents (1 Viewer)

blackadder

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So I started the tweedering of this to lot of sports betting sites asking "How do you handicap this?". Maybe Vegas has some leg breakers to get on the issue if this is causing them to lose money.

Might be a more effective angle than any kind of government, media or law enforcement in this day and age.
 

terrytogo

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I can't enjoy the Saints games like I should be able to, especially the close ones. Every time we make a big stop on D or have an explosive play on O, I'm caught in fan purgatory for about 5 - 10 seconds to make sure a flag isn't thrown. That's not what watching football should be like; takes away instant celebrations with who I'm watching the game with. Complete bs
 

Swimmer

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So the implied conclusion would be it is intentional and being managed by someone or group? If so, how would this work? An instruction to refs would come down from above saying to tilt calls against Saints? A conspiracy like that would involve many people, and all knowing it is corrupt and I am guessing illegal (due to gambling legalities now if nothing else). Just seems something like that would leak out with so many having to be involved. Also, think about the leverage that would give the refs in negotiations with NFL for pay and benefits. Give us what we want or we're going public.

If it is not being managed from above, then it is just individual refs or ref groups applying bias on their own? That would be more likely, but it probably be more inconsistent as different ref groups cover the Saints. Guess the worst case is all refs are POed at us because of noise made after Ram game last year.
Mich - I respect your point very much. And it's likely spot-on.

But I am just going to throw this up in case it has some validity. Earlier in my career, I was an exec at Fortune 15 Valero Energy, 28,000 employees. A huge company. It was an eye-opener for me to see how many perceived problems of the very senior execs were handled. We would sit in 2-hour meetings with the leadership team listening to the plan and how it would be implemented. Most plans seemed somewhat reasonable. Then I would get a call for a private meeting with my boss, where I am being told, "Forget what you learned in the meeting. 'The Word' from above is saying to tear the leader of that project to pieces. Give them no support at all and be a roadblock when you can do it without being caught!"

And "The Word"got implemented even though it was totally against the agreed upon plan by the leadership plan.
 

NUSaintsfan

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If they were just calling a lot of penalties against us that would be one thing. But they're calling a lot of penalties and they're calling them at critical situations. I've never seen so many ticky tack automatic first down calls.

3rd and 12 and we get a stop. Nope...hands to the face

3rd and 8 and we get a stop. Nope...pass interference

Third and longs might as well be called 3rd and automatic first down.
Don't forget the four or five interceptions negated because of a penalty "away" from the play.

I'm leaning more to the cognitive bias explanation rather than an all out vendetta fueled conspiracy.

When your thought process is clouded by inaccuracies and propaganda you have an inability to see truth in action while remaining consistent with the interpretations, which is the real issue many of us have.
 

blackadder

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Mich - I respect your point very much. And it's likely spot-on.

But I am just going to throw this up in case it has some validity. Earlier in my career, I was an exec at Fortune 15 Valero Energy, 28,000 employees. A huge company. It was an eye-opener for me to see how many perceived problems of the very senior execs were handled. We would sit in 2-hour meetings with the leadership team listening to the plan and how it would be implemented. Most plans seemed somewhat reasonable. Then I would get a call for a private meeting with my boss, where I am being told, "Forget what you learned in the meeting. 'The Word' from above is saying to tear the leader of that project to pieces. Give them no support at all and be a roadblock when you can do it without being caught!"

And "The Word"got implemented even though it was totally against the agreed upon plan by the leadership plan.
That's how the world works. Government to corporate.
 

Swimmer

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That's how the world works. Government to corporate.
I was afraid you would say something like that and I respect your insights Blackladder. I was a mid-level exec, so I wasn't privy to the top leadership real objectives. That was the only big company I've ever worked for. So I don't know how prevalent that is. If you are right and I would bet you are, all Riverron has to do is to get a couple of his best buddy top officials and tell them offline, "Screw the Saints and let it unofficially be known that their future as an NFL ref will not be thought of highly unless they follow this." That's scary

Edit: And Riveron would never put anything in writing or state any prejudice in meetings. He would have complete plausible deniability. And if it ever blows up, Riveron fires his least favorite reporting official and blames the entire thing on him playing Pontius Pilot the whole way. My stomach does not feel good right now.
 

blackadder

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I was afraid you would say something like that and I respect your insights Blackladder. I was a mid-level exec, so I wasn't privy to the top leadership real objectives. That was the only big company I've ever worked for. So I don't know how prevalent that is. If you are right and I would bet you are, all Riverron has to do is to get a couple of his best buddy top officials and tell them offline, "Screw the Saints and let it unofficially be known that their future as an NFL ref will not be thought of highly unless they follow this." That's scary

Edit: And Riveron would never put anything in writing or state any prejudice in meetings. He would have complete plausible deniability. And if it ever blows up, Riveron fires his least favorite reporting official and blames the entire thing on him playing Pontius Pilot the whole way. My stomach does feel good right now.
There's also "he meeting before the meetings" and the final meeting for the record is the kabuki theater where everyone plays the roles decided via back channel.
 

Swimmer

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There's also "he meeting before the meetings" and the final meeting for the record is the kabuki theater where everyone plays the roles decided via back channel.
That's really ugly. Sounds like you have a lot of hands-on experience dealing with this type garbage.
 

syracuse saint

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Is there a way to flood Al Riveron with e-mails/petitions until this becomes "a thing"?
 

Saint Kamara

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Even with that, it’s not the amount of penalties.
It’s when they are called.

A 5 yard illegal shift of 1st and 10 is not equal at all to a 3rd and 11, stop them to get off the field.....defensive holding off the ball for 5 yards and an automatic 1st.

And the amount of 1st downs by penalty, the difference in those numbers are STAGGERING.
I’d love to see the difference I those over Payton’s career....
Bingo.

It's an obvious vendetta by the league office because we made the NFL change a rule.

A mandate/directive was handed down to the officiating crews that this was going to happen to our team this year.
 

J.T.

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I am still working on this. An in-depth play-by-play analysis of every penalty called in every Saints game this year. I have all of the raw data, I just need about 10 hours to get it all together, I got really busy late last week and over the weekend. This is NOT a "how many" penalties have been called etc., type of analysis, it is WHEN plays get called back because of penalties. (Such as third or fourth down stops, Offensive Holding calls on big gains, TD's called back, etc.) It is glaring, from my look at the raw data so far, it is NOT a statistical anomaly, it is a script from the head office to mess with the Saints.
 
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SaintsFanInLA

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Mich - I respect your point very much. And it's likely spot-on.

But I am just going to throw this up in case it has some validity. Earlier in my career, I was an exec at Fortune 15 Valero Energy, 28,000 employees. A huge company. It was an eye-opener for me to see how many perceived problems of the very senior execs were handled. We would sit in 2-hour meetings with the leadership team listening to the plan and how it would be implemented. Most plans seemed somewhat reasonable. Then I would get a call for a private meeting with my boss, where I am being told, "Forget what you learned in the meeting. 'The Word' from above is saying to tear the leader of that project to pieces. Give them no support at all and be a roadblock when you can do it without being caught!"

And "The Word"got implemented even though it was totally against the agreed upon plan by the leadership plan.
This is the point I was sort of making in my thread about officiating. It's far too easy and dismissive to say that Saints fans are whining. When you look at the numbers, they show an ugly trend and it's frustrating. There can be an unofficial "official" mandate to really stick it to the Saints or any team really, in order to control the narrative. It can be as subtle as, make sure you focus on rub routes this week and you KNOW a team that utilizes rub routes a lot will be affected, meanwhile you are not calling holding penalties that are obvious, and it allows one team to flourish while the other flounders. Or it could be specific, and far more egregious with, any 50/50 calls need not go this team's way.

My mom worked at a company once, and even though the lunch breaks were officially 45 minutes, people routinely took 1-1.5 hour lunches and no one had a problem with it. Until one day, management had an issue with one guy, so off the books they told everyone else, make SURE you're back on time for lunch. They were, he wasn't, and they used that to help fire him. Stuff like this goes on all of the time, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that SOMEONE has an agenda against the Saints and can implement various undetectable means to accomplish it.

Last year when we lost to the Falcons, they had like 6 first downs by penalty we had 0. Their only penalties were false starts which really doesn't kill a drive like holding. It was frustrating to watch. Yet you watch the Saints this year and there are SO many holding calls against us on both sides of the ball, meanwhile are you telling me opposing defenses are playing PERFECT football against us.

Even in this last game when the Panthers missed the FG the ref waited well until the play was over and threw one of the most enthusiastic flags I have ever seen. The numbers and my eyes are telling me, there is a bias. Brees said in an interview after this game, our style of play hasn't changed, the officiating has though.
 
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Swimmer

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This is the point I was sort of making in my thread about officiating. It's far to easy and dismissive to say that Saints fans are whining. When you look at the numbers, they show an ugly trend and it's frustrating. There can be an unofficial "official" mandate to really stick it to the Saints or any team really, in order to control the narrative. It can be as subtle as, make sure you focus on rub routes this week and you KNOW a team that utilizes rub routes a lot will be effective, meanwhile you are not calling holding penalties that are obvious, and it allows one team to flourish while the other flounders. Or it could be specific, and far more egregious with, any 50/50 calls need not go this team's way.

My mom worked at a company once, and even though the lunch breaks were officially 45 minutes, people routinely took 1-1.5 hour lunches and no one had a problem with it. Until one day, management had an issue with one guy, so off the books they told everyone else, make SURE you're back on time for lunch. They were, he wasn't, and they used that to help fire him. Stuff like this goes on all of the time, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that SOMEONE has an agenda against the Saints and can implement various undetectable means to accomplish it.

Last year when we lost to the Falcons, they had like 6 first downs by penalty we had 0. Their only penalties were false starts which really doesn't kill a drive like holding. It was frustrating to watch. Yet you watch the Saints this year and there are SO many holding calls against us on both sides of the ball, meanwhile are you telling me opposing defenses are playing PERFECT football against us.

Even in this last game when the Panthers missed the FG the ref waited well until the play was over and threw one of the most enthusiastic flags I have ever seen. The numbers and my eyes are telling me, there is a bias. Brees said in an interview after this game, our style of play hasn't changed, the officiating has though.
Simply excellent!!! Thx much!
 

Swimmer

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Is there a way to flood Al Riveron with e-mails/petitions until this becomes "a thing"?
YES YES YES!!! Great idea. Is there some way to find a valid email address for the NFL where we as Who Dats can flood the NFL with complaints. And the more stats we can use, the more powerful the message. Maybe we could get lucky and get like a Florio during Bountygate who has a mass listening audience who will take on the cause.

I hate the part of me that sits around whining. And I do - unfortunately. I love your idea and if you need any team members for this, I'll support you.

I don't know what it costs to get a billboard for a few months. But if someone can derive a single stat that clearly shows bias, it would be awesome to put that on a big billboard that every official would see on their way from the airport to Downtown.
 

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